Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

200 grain swc bear creek hell


carlosa

Recommended Posts

Hey guys,

I recently received my dillon 650, and I've been trying to load bear creek 200 grain Molly coated semi wad cutters.

I've loaded over 3000 rounds but I have not been able to achive any constancy what so ever..

The here's the data on my load

4.9 grains of titegroup

Oal 1.245

Crimp .468

Cci primers

Mixed head stamps

This is what I get from the chrono (digital pro chrono)

Hi 859

Lo 739

MS 120

AvgV 835

SV 26

What worries me is the rounds that are chronoing way under 800.

I even had some chrono in the 600 :(

The biggest inconstancy in the loads that I can catch is the oal.

About 20 out of a 100 bullets come out of the press much longer than my set oal.

Some have come out as long as 1.257 that's .012 off.

Does anyone here load this bullet on their 650?

I'm not sure if this are just creazy inconstancies with the bullet cast or what.

But it has been very frustrating to work with.

Some times I can feel the random mouse fart bullets as I shoot them (the ones under 700).

I've double check and triple check my powder drop and it seems to be constant at 4.9 (bigger fluctuation is .1)

I hope some one here can help me. I was warned that this bullets were a pain to load right but man I did think it was going to be this hard.

Thanks for your time and attention guys.

Cheers,

Los

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are these bullets .452? If so, the crimp appears too tight. Should be around .472 Just checked the Hogdon website-OAL is supposed to be 1.225. Try throwing 10 loads with the 650 and see what the average is? Which dies are you using?

Edited by The_Vigilante
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are between .449 and .450

At least that's what I'm getting from the calipers.

I had a previous crimp of 4.69 and had the same problem.

My understanding is that lead bullets (specialy Molly coated) need a litle extra crimp.

Are you loading molly coated bullets too?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few days ago I reduced the oal to 1.235

(the data in Lyman is oal 1.234 4.8 grains of tite group for a velocity of 801 fps)

and the pressures were to creazy and even more hecktick

With my high being about 1020 and the low being 800

Standard diviation was about 66 with average velocity of 850

It's started getting a litle scary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I load Precision moly bullets but not the 200g SWC's. I shoot an XD .45 which doesn't like SWC's. Hopefully someone else on the Forum will chime in with other suggestions. You also might try calling Dillon!

Edited by The_Vigilante
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sounds like the bullets are undersized if your calipers are correct. Lead bullets should be .452. This could be one reason for your wild swings in velocity!

+1

If they are truly that small you will have lots of inconsistencies and a pretty nasty barrel. Is there a lot of leading or moly in the barrel? I cast some . 45bullets that were .450 and they leaded my barrel so bad it looked like a cave inside, I had lead peeling off the lands out of the grooves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going through similar velocity variations with surplus scott 453 powder, wolf primers, and 185gr precision bullets in 40 SW. When I was pouring the powder back in the can I noticed chunks in the powder that may have been afffecting the charge weights.

The undersize bullet idea gives me nightmares. Pour out your powder and check for lumps. My new powder is working ok so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Snap I checked my calipers they weren't zeroed properly

The radius is .452 .4515

So they are not that far off..

I've checked my powder and there's no clumps.

I'm going back to the basics I loded I batch that matches the lyman's manual and will chrono them tomorrow.

4.8 grains of titegroup

Oal 1.235

Crimp 1.473

Will see how that goes.

I talked to a friend that told me cci primers were super inconstant.

His going to hook me up with some Winchester primers tommorrow so I can experiment.

Thanks for the input guys.

Have any of you had chrono issues with cci primers??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't think it's the primers but who knows. Did you throw 10 loads thru your 650 and then average them? You need to do this to find out if the 650 is throwing accurate loads. What kind of scale are you using? Could it be off too? Do you have check weights to check the accuracy of your scale? Which dies are you using? Dillon, Lee, Redding, RCBS? Are they new dies? If not, clean the seating die-could have a build-up of lead in it affecting the OAL/COL.

Edited by The_Vigilante
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Snap I checked my calipers they weren't zeroed properly

The radius is .452 .4515

So they are not that far off..

I've checked my powder and there's no clumps.

I'm going back to the basics I loded I batch that matches the lyman's manual and will chrono them tomorrow.

4.8 grains of titegroup

Oal 1.235

Crimp 1.473

Will see how that goes.

I talked to a friend that told me cci primers were super inconstant.

His going to hook me up with some Winchester primers tommorrow so I can experiment.

Thanks for the input guys.

Have any of you had chrono issues with cci primers??

I've shot several thousand CCI primers, small pistol, small rifle and large pistol. They all chrono'd very consistently. Calibers were 38 SuperComp, 40 S$W and 45ACP.

Check the slop in your shell plate. Should be next to none at all. Might be the reason for the inconsistent OAL's. All dies tight?

Pat

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey guys so here's some more info.

I did the average of the ten drops and all looks good average was 4.87

My scale is a js100xv (got it from Brian)

I agree that the primers seem like a lame excuse and are probaly not the issue.

My plate is snugg and I constanly check it.

The oal inconsitancies happen with the tool head from dillon and with clamped head from unique teq.

I'm using dillon dies (new).

And I constanly wipe them to avoid build up.

At this point I'm just trying to avoid the lame rounds that are under 800.

The chrono I'm using is a proChrono and I did have some issues today battery died as I was using it. And I had random pick ups of 22fps and some of 255fps I bought new batteries today and will chrono today batch again.

The under few rounds that chronoed under 700fps were not bad readings. I could call them out as a shot them (the recoil was really weak).

Anyway any more info you guys can throw my way is appreciated.

I'll have a chance to try backyard bullets and Winchester primers tomorrow.

Maybe that will give me some new insight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

+1 on the chrono being the guilty party. Sounds like you are ok on the items I asked you to check. Let us know how the chrono readings go with the new batteries. Don't get too close or too far from the chrono when you shoot. I am not familiar with the scale you are using-it looks like a low dollar model-not knocking that but I would get another scale to check the electronic scale. Recommend either a RCBS 5-0-5 or Dillon Eliminator Scale. Also buy some checkweights if you haven't already purchased them.

Edited by The_Vigilante
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I had a chance to chrono the new load based on the data on lyman's

A loaded 100 rounds from which 55 of them had oal that were greater than .005 of the target oal (1.235) some of those were as long as 1.252

Anyway here's the chrono results from the 45 rounds that were within .005 of the target oal.

Hi 821

Lo 748

Avg 785

ES 73

SD 18

Here the result from 50/55 rounds that were not inside .005 of the target oal.

Hi 843

Lo 737

Av 788

ES 106

SD 24

I get the feeling that the dancing oal is part of the problem.

After loading last nights batch I noticed that the case plate had become lose and had a litle play in it.

Any tricks to getting that plate screw to not back out?

If I make that thing any tighter the plate will not rotate, maybe I should add more oil or freeze in that part of the machine?

I got a new batch of bullets and primers I'm going to see how does go trough the machine.

Cheers,

Los

Link to comment
Share on other sites

forget about the OAL for a minute. if you are using SWC bullets (which is also what im shooting) seat them so just a fingernail's thickness of the shoulder is sitting above the case neck. Different brands of SWC bullets are dif lengths, so i go by the shoulder of the bullet in comparison to case mouth.

Other than primer you and i have nearly identical loads (I'm shooting Precision 200gr Molys with 4.9g of titegroup). last time i shot over a chrono they were 880, 891, 886. Ive had better constiancy on other days as well.

Like others have said, crimp should be in the .470-.472 range. not really a crimp, but more of a reducing of the case flaring you did earlier in the process.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On my 550 there is a little set screw with a brass tip that screws into the column below the shell plate which secures the shellplate so it doesn't move. Does the 650 have that same set screw? When you assembled the 650 did you use this set screw? Just something to check for? I don't think it is the OAL/COL that is causing your wide deviations. Do you have access to another Chrono? If yes, use that one and see if the results are the same. If possible take a photo of one of the bullets you loaded and publish it here so we can see what you are doing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey guys

Thanks for all the input.

I just loaded two new batches for the chrono.

The same load as this mourning but with Winchester primers.

And a new load using back yard bullets (hard cast 200gr SWC)

I tracked the OAL of the first ten on both batches and the back yard bullets are sitting waaaay more consistent.

BC SWC

1.236

1.249

1.244

1.249

1.245

1.241

1.249

1.238

1.247

1.239

Back yards were all seated within .003 but mostly right on the money or off by .001

I'm guessing the oal problem is inconsitancy in the Bear Creeck mold.

@ Corey thanks for the input bro, I'll make a new batch tonight where I'll just eyeball the seating depth. And chrono them tommorrow.

Cheers,

Los

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keep one thing in mind when loading lead bullets, even moly coated as are yours. They , being lead, have a tendency to get dinged up during manufacture, packaging, shipment and unloading out of the box. I chased my tail for a long time trying to adjust my bullet seater loading Precision moly's until I came to the conclusion regarding the nose of the bullet getting dinged and dented. I finally set the seater die and went on with my loading. I did have better results from the chrono than you are having. No doubt the OAL will play a role in the chrono results but for the spread you are having there are probably other factors involved.

Pat

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keep one thing in mind when loading lead bullets, even moly coated as are yours. They , being lead, have a tendency to get dinged up during manufacture, packaging, shipment and unloading out of the box. I chased my tail for a long time trying to adjust my bullet seater loading Precision moly's until I came to the conclusion regarding the nose of the bullet getting dinged and dented. I finally set the seater die and went on with my loading. I did have better results from the chrono than you are having. No doubt the OAL will play a role in the chrono results but for the spread you are having there are probably other factors involved.

Pat

Thank you pat,

That's a good point.

It's hard for me to know just how much of an effect oal dif of .016 would make in velocity.

But it's hard to imagine that it could make over a 100 fps difference like I'm getting.

I did not get a chance to chrono the Back yard bullets (the ones that set constantly) today.

But I will do so tommorrow mourning I'm hoping it will give me some better insight.

Another question for you guys is what's acceptable MS and SD?

I would be happy if I could get this to be around 50 for the spread and under 20 for diviation this should be possible with mixed brass right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok here's some pics of the round when seated with a nail width from the shoulder of the case.

If a seat them this deep the oal gets preaty small in the 1.22..

Sorry for the poor quality I too the pics with my phone.

I'm going to add this batch to the chrono and see how it goes.

Hopefully they will feed properly.

The more a I look at this bear creeck the more I think the bullet cast is to blame for my issues.

I guess I'll know tommorrow :)

bc1.jpg

bc2.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your 1.226 OAL looks good for my Sig 220's. They have short throated barrels and must have lead swc seated deep or they start to jam on fouling from firing.

I wrote in earlier about clumps in my powder maybe giving me velocity issues and have not seen a response. I also had my first squibs in 45 ACP loading (about 15 years)from my 8lb keg of tightgroup. I did not check for or notice clumps in the tightgroup but did do this for my surplus powder and found clumps. You might consider powder fluctuations as a possible cause of your velocity variations.

gordonm1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...