Cain't Get No Power Satisfaction

[imhntn]

I DQ'd the Area 5 this summer for low power with my 9mm. I was shooting 147 gr cast bullets with 3.4 gr of Solo 1000 and at home it was getting 128 pf but at the match only 121 pf. I bought a new chrono M2 to make sure I had an accurate one and have just had time to check loads the last few days. I also bought a new electronic scale to check and make sure my beam type was correct. I loaded 10 rds each at 3.6, 3.7, 3.8 and 3.9. OAL is 1.120" and I am using Federal small pistol primers. The best I could get with the 3.9 gr load was an average of 861 fps which is only a 126 pf and I want to go up to around 135 to be safe and not dq again. The temps here when I was shooting were in the mid 90's. Any ideas? How much Solo 1000 can I load and not be too much? Should I change powders? I am using a CZ SP-01 Shadow by the way. My son is shooting a Glock 34 and getting 138 pf with 3.6 gr of Solo 1000. I am getting frustrated and probably will change powders but I just do not know if I got a bad batch of Solo or what? Help!

[98sr20ve]

What lot number on the bottom of the container?

I had someone with the same situation as you (low FPS for the loading). He sent me some and I tried it and got the exact same results as my powder. BUT, I have noticed Solo 1000 is running slow with the hotter weather. I tested it at my last match in the morning and in the afternoon. I lost 4 PF between the two. I may switch after I use up my current stash of Solo. It does seem that I could safely load more powder as clearly my pressure is lower. Thats what Tech Support said when I questioned them about the lot variances I was seeing. YMMV, yadda, yadda, yadda.

[DWFAN]

3.8gr with a 147 lead flat point at 1.135 makes plenty of power in my M&P Pro, and 9mm 1911. 132pf or better, at 80degrees

Whats the lot # of your powder? How do your primers look ? If there isnt any pressure signs, I would make some at 4.0-4.2 and see where that gets you.

When it cools off, your loads will make more power.. Solo 1K is reverse temp sensitive.

[imhntn]

Little sticker says 1930 2-2-10. The primers are flattening out some at 3.9. I am a little worried to go up any more. Maybe if I stick at 3.9 or bump to 4.0 it will be plenty in the cold weather.

[DWFAN]

Thats the exact lot that I have. Maybe I need to chrono again.. It's passed at 132pf for three different chrono trips though.

Maybe you just have a really slow barrel in that CZ... Whos cast bullets are you using ? (mine have been Missouri Bullet, and BBI Moly)

[G-ManBart]

The Solo 1000 data that's available in most guides/manuals is quite conservative, and the lots seem to show some variation. I ran 3.85gr with a couple of different 147gr FMJs (1.125") and got in the 135-137PF range with my M&P Pro.

3.9gr probably will be fine in cold weather, but there's only one way to tell.

For anybody else reading this, it's a perfect example of why I always sound like a broken record about people needing a larger margin of error when shooting Minor. If you're not 135PF or more, you're taking a risk that you will have spent a bunch of money to shoot for fun only, which really is a shame. R,

[imhntn]

I am using J&K Bullet Casters bullets. They are our of Oklahoma City and have shot great for me. I know a lot of people that use them with no problems. Maybe it is a barrel issue. I have a couple more 9mm's that I could try the loads in and see what they do. Thanks for the idea.

[CocoBolo]

I am using J&K Bullet Casters bullets. They are our of Oklahoma City and have shot great for me. I know a lot of people that use them with no problems. Maybe it is a barrel issue. I have a couple more 9mm's that I could try the loads in and see what they do. Thanks for the idea.

Ok guys I just bought a Shandow to play with when I'm not in the mood for a dot. In my dark past with CZ's I found that any Cast or Moly bullet had very rapid build up of lead/moly in the barrel, and first thing you know the popper was falling down while shooting the paper.

So you guys telling me you are not having issues with lead or moly build up in these CZ's?

I don't use Solo. In minor 9 I use either WST, TiteGroup, or N320 what ever I happen to have in the fridge they all shoot about the same.

[redwoods]

I live and shoot in Colorado and sometimes shoot matches when its snowing out....30degrees. I shoot major matches in the spring and summer when it is 90+degrees.

I also go to other states where there is more humidity and lower elevations. YOU NEED AT LEAST +5 ABOVE MINIMUM POWER FACTOR. I aim to chrono at 130 minimum. I also aim for 170 minimum with my major loads. I got real close in Georgia at Area 6 this year with my CZ75 SP01. It was around 126 and I chronoed around 129-132 here in the mountains. I am bumping up the charge .1 grain on my next reloads. I also bumped up my major 40 loads +.1 grain when I went to NM this year and it chronoed 169.

You need to chrono at 130 or 170 power factor...minimum to be ok at major matches. I would go 132 or 172 just to be sure. AND you can't chrono in extreme temps, unless you will always shoot major matches at those temps. I chrono when its 60-80 degrees....... Depending on the temp sensitivity of the powder. Then, when its really hot or really cold out, let the ammo sit in the outside temps and then chrono and see what you get.

Randy

[imhntn]

I have not had any issues with leading up yet but it could be dirty. I have not cleaned it in a few hundred rounds. I'll check that too.

[DWFAN]

Be sure to post what you find out.. I'll hopefully have some time next week to run some through my Shadow and test the results. (thats about the only gun I have not chrono'd anything on yet, but I'll need to soon when I start shooting it more)

[twodownzero]

Kinda wild that my jug makes minor no problem at 3.4-3.5 with both cast and moly coated 147s at 1.120".

[Field]

i dont get this whole connundrum with not making minor/major and why its even an issue.

just put more damn powder in the case.

boom. problem solved.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Field

[G-ManBart]

I got real close in Georgia at Area 6 this year with my CZ75 SP01. It was around 126 and I chronoed around 129-132 here in the mountains.

You need to chrono at 130 or 170 power factor...minimum to be ok at major matches. I would go 132 or 172 just to be sure.

Those two somewhat contradict one another....you were loading to the range you're recommending and just barely made it. That says you didn't have as much margin as you'd probably like (and why you're increasing the charge). 130 isn't enough and it's actually pretty silly when you boil it down to facts. Even the very best probably can't feel the difference between 130 and 135PF (that's like 30fps, which is within normal ES ranges)...why even remotely risk going sub-Minor? Load it to 135PF and something totally crazy would have to happen to not make Minor, and at no competitive disadvantage.

I'd also say that for Major, 170 isn't enough either, but at least when you go Minor, you still get to shoot...it's only likely to be a bigger negative influence on your score than any other stage of the match (do the math, and it's like zeroing a stage in most cases). My trusty, always easily makes Major 38SC load went 172-174 at home (many test days) and a couple of major matches, but the same lot of ammo went 166.1 at Nationals two years ago. If I'd started out at 170 at home, I would have gone Minor. R,

[JimmyZip]

i dont get this whole connundrum with not making minor/major and why its even an issue.

just put more damn powder in the case.

boom. problem solved.

Well, if your load isn't making major, and you are putting more powder in the case than is reccomended, you could have some problems. Results from incidents involving explosives can be devistating. You can't just "put more damn powder" in anything.

[twodownzero]

i dont get this whole connundrum with not making minor/major and why its even an issue.

just put more damn powder in the case.

boom. problem solved.

Well, if your load isn't making major, and you are putting more powder in the case than is reccomended, you could have some problems. Results from incidents involving explosives can be devistating. You can't just "put more damn powder" in anything.

Yes you can. Any safe load at 163 pf is gonna be safe at 170 pf. And any that is safe at 122 pf will be safe at 130.

The recommendations exist to keep us within a safe range. That doesn't mean that a slight amount over max will result in a blown up gun.

Maybe it's taken me years of reloading to realize this, but the actual limit of safety is way beyond anything in a reloading manual.

Older loading manuals differ from new ones by 10-15%, even for the same powder. I wouldn't call it wise to test the engineering factor, but it'd be silly to deny its existence.

[Sarge]

i dont get this whole connundrum with not making minor/major and why its even an issue.

just put more damn powder in the case.

boom. Exactly!

Some powders go over the edge very quickly. Sorry, but this is never sound advice!

[CocoBolo]

Be sure to post what you find out.. I'll hopefully have some time next week to run some through my Shadow and test the results. (thats about the only gun I have not chrono'd anything on yet, but I'll need to soon when I start shooting it more)

I did crono some ammo that I loaded for my Son-in-laws Beretta in the Shadow. The Shadow barrel is faster than the Beretta which cronoed 131pf.

I bought the Shadows used so don't know a round count. 4.7gr of WST behind a Montana Gold 124gr RN loaded to 1.140 with a MagTech small pistol primer 1103fps Average temp about 102. Feedback, the gun had little recoil or flip. A similar PF load is 4.3gr of TiteGroup with the same bullet etc. I'm going to try some Bayou Bullets in it and see if it turns green.

Back to the response about just put more powder in it. I will agree that you can and often do exceed the load data chart amounts, and there may well be a reason for that we are unaware of like reformulating the powder. You do this with your gun in your hands. Then if you happen to hit F of X the mathmatical term that refers to that magic number where metal flies its on your nickel, or should I say brass.

When I have done this I have worked up to it gradually and very carefully checked for signs of pressure and once signs of pressure were present stoppped.

I've encountered one powder TruBlue in an open gun and actually more powder had the reverse effect the bullet actually got slower, however it did cause an equal and opposite reaction which was to flatten out the primer and push the firing pin thru the primer and whomp the case out beyond use and make it darn near impossbile to get out of the gun. I was very close to F of X. I found out what Super Face is, that 's when flying debris comes back in your face when the primer is puched thru.

I adivse caution when you are at or above published limits. Like they say in the commercials don't try this at home.

[imhntn]

I will keep you updated but it may be a little while. I am leaving for New Mexico on an archery elk hunt next week and my time may be up till I get back. Thanks for all the help. I have not been able to find max load specs on Solo 1000 for the 9mm. Anybody seen the published specs?

[DWFAN]

ive got an old pdf, and 147gr isnt listed, and im way over max on 124jhp's

[DWFAN]

good luck Elk hunting... Would love to do that some day.

[G-ManBart]

Yes you can. Any safe load at 163 pf is gonna be safe at 170 pf. And any that is safe at 122 pf will be safe at 130.

The recommendations exist to keep us within a safe range. That doesn't mean that a slight amount over max will result in a blown up gun.

Maybe it's taken me years of reloading to realize this, but the actual limit of safety is way beyond anything in a reloading manual.

Older loading manuals differ from new ones by 10-15%, even for the same powder. I wouldn't call it wise to test the engineering factor, but it'd be silly to deny its existence.

That's overly simplistic, some is simply false, and some based upon incomplete reasoning or knowledge/experience. I didn't really want to comment, but this is a safety issue that shouldn't be put out there like it's fact.

If you have a load that is at max pressure at 163PF, and you bump it to 170PF, it very well may be truly unsafe, enough to cause case failures (at least). Catastrophic failures like barrels bursting aren't likely, but not impossible, in this sort of scenario. Take something like a heavy bullet with a very fast powder (most .40 Major loads, for example), and the margins are already very thin....just a few small factors coming into play, with a load that was just "bumped up a little" and boooom, things get ugly.

The "slight amount" over really doesn't apply to this thread since data for Solo 1000 is well below what is being posted here. Now that Hodgdon has bought Scott, we're all hoping they'll work up some new data, but based upon conversations people have had with the engineers there, we're really operating on our own for a while with heavy bullets in 9mm.

It may have taken you years to realize the limits are beyond the loading manuals, but it shouldn't take you long at all to see that many, many, many loads used in USPSA are already well beyond those book values.

New loading manuals may be different for a number of reasons, and it's not usually just because they feel like being more conservative now...that's clear from manuals that list pressure readings. Most of the differences over time are due to normal lot variations, but sometimes slight changes to the recipe take place.

[G-ManBart]

Sanity check here. Scott lists a max of 3.6gr of Solo 1000 with a 125gr Lead RN at 871fps. Here we're talking about 3.9gr pushing a 147gr cast bullet 861fps. Let's see... it's three tenths of a grain more powder, pushing an extra 22gr worth of bullet to essentially the same velocity...and the primers are starting to flatten. While I think some of their data was conservative, everything is still pointing to the fact that this combination is getting up there pressure wise. I'm not suggesting parts will start flying, but it's using up a good chunk of the safety margin in the system. R,

[njl]

Well, if your load isn't making major, and you are putting more powder in the case than is reccomended, you could have some problems. Results from incidents involving explosives can be devistating. You can't just "put more damn powder" in anything.

Some bullet weights/powders/calibers just don't work well for making power factor.

Go a little lighter with the bullets (124gr) and it gets a lot easier to make minor PF without exceeding max loads.

[imhntn]

I tried some Vit N320 today. Started with 3.4 grs with the 147 gr cast bullets. Low was 896 fps and high was 906 fps. It sure has more recoil feel than the solo but I guess that could be expected with that much higher velocity. Looks like I have a load that should work in competitions. Would you guys recommend staying where I am with that load or bumping it up another grain just to be sure? Temp was about 85 degrees. I have heard that the N320 is not too temp sensitive. Is that everyone else's experience?

Edited October 7, 2010 by imhntn