Why Stages with All 3 Guns?

[SinistralRifleman]

Why do we have stages with all 3 guns? Particularly when we shoot 10 rounds or less out of each on a stage it feels like its more about a how fast you can throw the one down in a bucket without getting DQed.

Along with that always it seems to be that stages with all 3 guns take the longest to get reset/shooter staged up for.

What is the benefit of putting all 3 on one stage? Outside of massive stages like those at Ironman where you shoot a lot out of each gun it doesn't make much sense to me.

[HS101]

I like the transition / mix. However, I agree that all 3 on a stage can to 10 and dump, repeat, etc... I tend to like stages that have Pistol/Rifle or Pistol/Shotgun. However, having said that, my favorite 3 gun stage ever was stage was at Fort Benning last year. It was the stage with the parachute harness (I think it was stage 5). It had a good mix of quick shotgun (bird and slugs), pistol on the move, and some technical rifle shots.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Moderators this thread is offensive please delete it.

Are you kidding Russell? From a guy that shoots trooper and carries everything with him all day i woudl expect the oppostite thread from you.

If you got 'em use 'em, baby!

You are correct in that they are the longest and hardest to reset but the only thing better than all 3 guns wouddl be if we could use a crossbow or some other 4th gun.

Edited August 20, 2010 by jtischauser

[HS101]

A good point to this is it all falls to stage design...

[ken hebert]

Why all three? I forces you to think in more dimensions at one time. I'm all for 'em.

[mscott]

Considder a regular USPSA match with a couple of little quickie stages thrown in. The longer field courses are always more fun. I like the bigger stages and agree that that slow the match down, but I've come to expect it. I'd rather shoot a match of 4 kick-ass stages than a 7 stage match with the same overall round count. If set up and tear down wasn't an issue I'd say you should have to reload every gun on every stage it's used.

[High Lord Gomer]

I have like the once or twice I have shot matches where you had X number of rifle/pistol/shotgun rounds to engage targets A-G, then Y number of Pistol/shotgun.rifle rounds to engage targets H-Q, then whatevery you could carry of shotgun/rifle/pistol rounds to engage targets R-Z and clean up whatever you failed to get with the first two.

I also would rather shoot two great stages than 5 mediocre stages.

[SinistralRifleman]

Are you kidding Russell? From a guy that shoots trooper and carries everything with him all day i woudl expect the oppostite thread from you.

You may have noticed I said stages like Ironman where we actually shoot 20-40 rounds through each gun are cool.

I'm seeing more stuff where we shoot 10 rounds or less through each gun and throw it in a bucket. The stage designs for stages with all 3 guns often seem forced; i.e. "well we need a stage that has all 3 guns in it because that's what you do at a 3 Gun match".

Practicing throwing the safety on and throwing it in a bucket, or practicing speed clearing (dropping mag and cycling action) are requisite skills to practice to do well at matches now.

Why all three? I forces you to think in more dimensions at one time. I'm all for 'em.

If we were actually allowed to pick which guns we wanted to use to engage targets (within safety parameters) I think this would be more valid.

Example: "why am I throwing down the rifle I was just using to shoot slugs with a shotgun at 75 yards???" it feels forced and makes little sense as far as problem solving goes.

Stages that are just 2 guns often seem more logical in their design and premise.

I also would rather shoot two great stages than 5 mediocre stages.

That's what I'm getting at.

Edited August 20, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[DocMcG]

I tend to agree with not liking the concept of very minimal round counts with each firearm, just to dump it and move to the next one. I would rather not use three guns just for the sake of using three guns in one stage. HOWEVER, I shot matches over the last two years that had multi-gun stages I believe were done in such a way that made the use of multiple guns appropriate. Here is what we were challenged with:

1. Tac Pro Fall Match 5/09 - (Shotgun/Handgun Combo Stage) - The shooter began with 8 rounds in the shotgun and a hot holstered handgun. All steel were poppers or falling plates. When the shotgun ran dry the shooter had to retain the empty shotgun and finish the stage with the handgun. You were rewarded for not missing with the shotgun! Approximately 18 pieces of steel total. (Tac Pro also has a good habit of allowing the shooter to have a "hot" handgun during shotgun and close-in rifle stages, then allowing the shooter to make the choice to reload or transition to the handgun if needed. I believe this is what SinistralRifleman is getting at above. It is nice to have that option as the shooter. )

2. LaRue 2010 - Pick a stage. One could argue that any of the multigun stages made sense. The jungle run stage comes to mind as one that did a good job of providing a nice balance of round count, movement and varied range for each firearm.

3. Blackwell 4Gun Match 6/10 - (This one is for your earlier 4th Gun comment Jesse ) - This was an invitational match that added the use of a long range rifle. One of the stages challenged shooters to take black dots at 100 yds with the bolt gun, transition to the shotgun to move/reload/shoot a series of a dozen or so clays, transition to the AR for some mini-IPSC paper targets and finally tie a bow on the stage with the handgun. PHEW! It was great even though I did not have the best day! Here is a link to some video on the stage:

The stage I have described here was the 3rd in the match.

These are three that come to mind as being well planned for the use of multiple platforms. I bet each of us have experienced both the good and not so good with regard to these types of stages.

Cheers,

Kyle

Edited August 20, 2010 by DocMcG

[smokshwn]

I think the big key that has been hit on is stage design. Of course a stage where the only priority met by the stage designer is that all three guns are used will most likely be a snooze fest. Where as giving you some choice targets (shotty or pistol, slug or rifle etc) can really tax some shooters enough that they incur big failures in there efforts to manage the stage.

[GorillaTactical]

I'm with Doc on this one...when integrated properly, I find stages which use multiple weapons more entertaining...they even out the stage a little bit in my opinion...also, after waiting 30 minutes to shoot, I perfer it not to be over in 20-30 seconds

[mpeltier]

Why? Because they are three times the fun. Now, I do believe they should be higher round count than 10 per gun. At our club we routinely put together stages with 15-20 or more rounds per gun. And many stages give the shooter an option to transition to specific targets with their choice of guns(s) as well.

A better question for me is why have any single gun stages at a 3-gun match . I hate that. If I want to shoot a pistol stage, id have gone to a pistol match. Make all stages a minimum of two guns or more, or give the option of say shooters choice of rifle or pistol, etc.

More choices= more options= more fun.

[kurtm]

I agree that multi-gun stages are more fun, but with that said, I detest having to carry all 3 on me for a given stage; sling both your rifle and your shotgun and start in box A.....blows!

I can see always carrying your pistol as it is the final back-up, and I can see carrying one or the other, But if I had a rifle in my hands I would NEVER carry a Shotgun!! If I had a shotgun, I would either be in an area that required a Shotgun, or I would be on my way to the rifle...but I would never be CARRYING both! ESPECIALLY in natural terrain! KurtM

[bigbrowndog]

As a competitor, one of the biggest issues I have with 3 guns on a stage is the walkthru time that is commonly allowed, 5min. not being long enough for even seasoned shooters to sort out all three guns. 5min. is fine when your only using one gun but additional time should be alloted when using more than one, you need to figure out your ammo placement on your body, and where and how you are going to engage targets. An additional 2min. per extra gun would be nice, the allowance that RM3G gave of 3 extra minutes for the first 3 shooters was a very good addition, and one i hope others use for their matches. the remaining competitors generally have enough time for their own gear after that.

I also agree that carrying all three is a logistical nightmare for RO's and competitors.

[abn-rgr]

I agree with the carrying of all three weapons during a stage. It is kind of a nightmare. As far as allowing more time, you get into backlogs with follow on squads and the squadding matrix. That, to me would be more of a logistical nightmare.

[Graham Smith]

I would rather not use three guns just for the sake of using three guns in one stage.

Yup. Same goes for any stage in any competition where something is stuck in there "just because".

[Jesse Tischauser]

I agree that multi-gun stages are more fun, but with that said, I detest having to carry all 3 on me for a given stage; sling both your rifle and your shotgun and start in box A.....blows!

I can see always carrying your pistol as it is the final back-up, and I can see carrying one or the other, But if I had a rifle in my hands I would NEVER carry a Shotgun!! If I had a shotgun, I would either be in an area that required a Shotgun, or I would be on my way to the rifle...but I would never be CARRYING both! ESPECIALLY in natural terrain! KurtM

Can I use my 3 gun wagon instead of slings on these stages?

[Jesse Tischauser]

An additional 2min. per extra gun would be nice, the allowance that RM3G gave of 3 extra minutes for the first 3 shooters was a very good addition, and one i hope others use for their matches. the remaining competitors generally have enough time for their own gear after that.

This is a very great idea. There is nothing worse than being the first shooter on a big 3 gun stage and having 5 minutes to load your mags, fight the other shooters off to do your walk through, and then stage all 3 guns.

Edited August 20, 2010 by jtischauser

[mpeltier]

I'm not to fond of using slings and carrying two long guns on your person during a course of fire. We always stage the second long gun, which works well and does not seem to complicate things very much.

I have been to matches where 3-guns went very smoothly and caused no RO nightmares, and ive been to some that were seemingly a nightmare. Maybee its in the plan and execution more than the fact that there are 3-guns used for the stage.

At our club we average about 40 3-guners which give us 4 squads of ten. With 5 stages, and 2-3 stages on average with 3 guns and the rest always 2 guns we manage to finish easily by 3:00. (about an hour per squad per stage) With pretty high round counts as well. Not ever a knightmare I can remember. The biggest factor when things get backed up is the failure of all personel on the squad to help reset, but thats another matter all together.

[gerritm]

Why all three? I forces you to think in more dimensions at one time. I'm all for 'em.

Ken, I shot your 3-gun @ Orange and it was the first true match I have shot where you used all 3 guns on a single stage and it was a blast. Probably my favorite. It was an easy transition from gun to gun and really made you think and react. I wish we had more true 3-gun stages at other matches. I know it must have been a lot more difficult to set up and design safely.

[abn-rgr]

I'm not to fond of using slings and carrying two long guns on your person during a course of fire. We always stage the second long gun, which works well and does not seem to complicate things very much.

I have been to matches where 3-guns went very smoothly and caused no RO nightmares, and ive been to some that were seemingly a nightmare. Maybee its in the plan and execution more than the fact that there are 3-guns used for the stage.

At our club we average about 40 3-guners which give us 4 squads of ten. With 5 stages, and 2-3 stages on average with 3 guns and the rest always 2 guns we manage to finish easily by 3:00. (about an hour per squad per stage) With pretty high round counts as well. Not ever a knightmare I can remember. The biggest factor when things get backed up is the failure of all personel on the squad to help reset, but thats another matter all together.

Im talking about a Major match. There are pretty strict timelines you have to stick with or people end up shooting in the dark or making up stages on Sunday.

[bigbrowndog]

thats where dropping just one stage or even making a short course instead of a long course aids in shooter flow.

above all else realistic timelines on shooter flow thru a stage is paramount when deciding on what stages to have and how complicated they should be.

trapr

[StealthyBlagga]

As a shooter I'm not a huge fan of all three guns in one stage. I can see the logic of shotgun/pistol and rifle/pistol, but all three or even just rifle/shotgun seems contrived to me.

As a stage designer, I recognize that some of my customers want to shoot 3-gun stages, so I am obliged to throw them in the mix. However, unless you guys are willing to come to SMM3G and only shoot (say) 8 stages instead of the usual eleven stages, then we are always going to be under stiff time pressure to push the punters through, and so it will be necessary to limit the stages to the type Sinistral describes - shoot 10 and dump it. About the best that we can do is design the stages so the old guns are cleared and new ones placed in the most efficient manner possible. Needless to say, the less dicking around with sight pictures etc. that goes on, the faster the stage will run and the more ambitious we can be .

[jmorris]

What is the benefit of putting all 3 on one stage?

You get to stand around at least 3 times longer in between shooters watching them load and unload and show clear, guns spread out all across the bay…

[HRider]

There is some good discussion here. My favorite stage of all was the Trench stage at Ft.Benning a couple of years ago. Only a two minute walk thru on a stage that was at least one hundred yards long helped make it interesting too. Since the match staff reset this stage, and the amount of setup that went into it was time consuming, I know you can't have stages like this everywhere. Well thought out two gun stages are fun, well thought out three gun stages are more fun.

Hurley