Popper Calibration & Challenge

[Chris iliff]

Your right Nik, but as good as the crews are, that's not the case. I would never blame the crews. I stated some sound arguments for it being something else, like normal wear and mother nature.

No, poppers are scored the same regardless of being an activator or not. 5 pts. Of course if it doesn't "activate" then that is covered as an REF, which = RESHOOT. Which is what we do now.

Except, of course, now there would be a challenge. The popper, as mentioned numerous times is not and never can be in the same set as it was when the competitors bullet hit

it. Competitor loses challenge and all points available from activator to the end of stage. I hope it's only a 1 paper

disappearing target. Otherwise, game over.

I'd like to fairly and equitably address the rule and think I have. I maintain traceability of our standards straight to the Chrono. As it should be.

Edited August 15, 2011 by fourtrax

[aztecdriver]

So in your proposal, even an very slight edge hit woudl be scored as a hit?

I completely agree that there are some flaws with our current popper rules, but I'm not 100% sure what you are proposing is an improvement. We've all been burned by improperly set poppers. Some of them results in a reshoot, others result in a bad run because we shot them down when they would have failed a calibration.

I also don't support any more differences for level 1 matches. Many people already believe "anything goes" at a level 1 match. More level one exemptions just add fuel to that fire.

An edge hit is debatable, there could be many solutions for that. I guess you could say yes and call it a "HIT", or you could have the RO determine it like he determines any other questionable hit. I'm for the RO's myself.

[snip]

I don't agree with that. Help me understand a little more on what your saying? Are you equating seeing a hit mark on an edge of a piece of steel the same as an RO getting out an overlay on a non-scoring border edge hit to see if a bullet diameter touched a scoring line? If that's the case I don't see it. First of all, there is no scoring border on steel. A bullet that touches the steel and leaves a mark "hit" the steel. The question is whether said hit should have been enough to drive it over. Now, that decision is rested solely on the hands of the RO in your situation, without anything to evaluate the evidence. There's no overlay to lay on a splatter mark to help determine whether it should have fallen. I, as an RO, don't want that much subjectivity placed upon me - you've now placed a 15 point swing (or more) in a shooters score based on whether I determine it was a legitimate hit. No thanks. I'd like to hear, though, what kinds of solutions could be made up for that.

[Chris iliff]

Well, an overlay would work. Remember, anything on or above the calibration zone is a good hit. So, we are talking about hits on the ark or close, at the bottom of the calibration zone.

I don't see this as a problem. But maybe that's just me.

Remember, we use the Chrono to determine PF, not steel. A hit is a hit, as long as that competitor makes 125 PF. We don't need to determine if it had enough power to drive it over, that's why we use the Chrono. This is why we paint the steel between shooters. I've RO'd several State matches and know it's not a picnic. It's work, we make good calls based on rules. This is no different. Better to me, but that's me.

We already place an undue burden on the shooter with the current rule. Especially if the popper is an activator target and you still have half the stage left, yikes.

I guess I would rather leave my "match" in the hands of a

trained professional making the call, instead of the current challenge method. I know the current process is not the best we can do, given all the variables about popper "sets" that have been discussed.

Anybody got a better idea? I think mine is valid and doable, but maybe there is something better.

Let's find it.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Chris iliff

[Skydiver]

Well, an overlay would work. Remember, anything on or above the calibration zone is a good hit. So, we are talking about hits on the ark or close, at the bottom of the calibration zone.

I don't see this as a problem. But maybe that's just me.

Remember, we use the Chrono to determine PF, not steel. A hit is a hit, as long as that competitor makes 125 PF. We don't need to determine if it had enough power to drive it over, that's why we use the Chrono. This is why we paint the steel between shooters. I've RO'd several State matches and know it's not a picnic. It's work, we make good calls based on rules. This is no different. Better to me, but that's me.

We already place an undue burden on the shooter with the current rule. Especially if the popper is an activator target and you still have half the stage left, yikes.

I guess I would rather leave my "match" in the hands of a

trained professional making the call, instead of the current challenge method. I know the current process is not the best we can do, given all the variables about popper "sets" that have been discussed.

Anybody got a better idea? I think mine is valid and doable, but maybe there is something better.

Let's find it.

This is a pie in the sky idea, but it may inspire other ideas: Instead of an "analog" setup where it's the bullet hit that knocks the popper over, there is a set of electronics and electromagnets at the poppers hinge that measures force. When the electronics detects a valid hit, the electromagnets release the popper and let it fall (or solenoids fire and push to assist the fall). Light indicators at the base of the popper show whether the electronics thought it was a good hit or not, so it'll be easy to tell if it's true a REF when the indicator says "good hit", but the popper is still standing. Engineers have all kinds of strain and pressure gauges to measure forces and built to withstand abuse. Relatively simple software can differentiate between a gust of wind versus a bullet hit (because of attack/decay wave patterns.) Going "digital" will probably be expensive to develop, deploy, and maintain and will probably be not within the means of a club that is starting up, or just manages to break even. There'll be new meaning to "calibration headaches" and Mr. Fixit now has to not only have a wrench, but also a multimeter.

[Chris iliff]

As an ex Electronic Technician in the Navy, I love your idea!

But you wisely listed the drawbacks associated. I like the pie in the sky ideas, keeps us thinking!

[coldchar]

Does anyone (like AA or DC Ammo) make any 115-120 PF "calibration" ammo? My 9mm stuff runs about 130-135 PF. I suppose I could make up some special calibration ammo by downloading just a bit, but it hardly seems worth the bother if I can just buy some that I know will work since I hardly shoot 9mm anymore.

According to the Rulebook, the calibration ammo must be between 115-125.

Not quite accurate, Appendix C-1 (2) "should achieve a power factor between 115-125" not must.

Plain only everyday 38 special in a 4" barrel works just fine. As a MD at a Level 1 match , I calibrate

the poppers before every match. Best way to deal with grumbling shooters. When they gripe they always look a little embarrassed when I tell them my 19th century cartridge knocked it over. I have yet to have them ask me to prove it.

Jim G

Edited August 16, 2011 by coldchar

[Skydiver]

Sorry to revive this dormant thread, but I read this interesting suggestion from this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=140072&view=findpost&p=1580368

As someone mentioned it does not require much to topple a properly set up "bianchi falling plate". I have found that if the 8" plates are pitched properly, and assuming the mechanism permits the plate axle to pivot properly and assuming the plates are flat, then it only takes about 25 ounces to cause them to be off balance, then fall. I have set them up, then taken a trigger pull gauge to see how much it takes to get them to fall. I find that it is about a pound and half of pressure at 12 oclock on the plate center to pull it over. I have found that if I replace plates, I can use a trigger gauge to make the resistance repeateable. I think it is the best way to re-calibrate knockover steel. Calibrate first with what your standard is, then measure the amount it takes to topple. Through out the day, simply measure the resistance. If it hasn't changed, then the calibration has not either. Each rack may vary, the measure result should be constant, once it is set, then measured.