Popper Calibration & Challenge

[Chills1994]

mactiger wrote:

Doing anything but following the rules, deliberately, is cheating.

agree'ed.

Nothing scares off shooters faster, in my opinion, for them to think something hinky is going on at a particular local club's matches.

[West Texas Granny]

As this topic is about level 1 matches only, a chronograph is a good idea but keep in mind to use it you must have a calibration gun and ammo, same as for calibrating poppers.

Appendix C2 item 16.

Works when everyone is shooting the same powder,case,bullet,loaded by same person on the same press under identical circumstances with shooters using identical guns.

[aztecdriver]

As this topic is about level 1 matches only, a chronograph is a good idea but keep in mind to use it you must have a calibration gun and ammo, same as for calibrating poppers.

Appendix C2 item 16.

Works when everyone is shooting the same powder,case,bullet,loaded by same person on the same press under identical circumstances with shooters using identical guns.

I'm sorry - I'm missing what you are saying. The reason we have a chronograph is so that you DON'T need to have the above. Chronograph makes sure you bullets weigh what they should and fly as fast as they should. We make sure the chronograph is accurate by having calibration ammo and gun that has been reasonably certified to make that speed.

I'm of the opinion it would be a good idea to have level 1's using the chronograph - occasionally. Stop local cheaters, get RO's used to running the chrono stage... lots of fun stuff.

[aztecdriver]

I provided the extra arguments in support of my statement that it should be called a hit even it doesn't fall. As far as calibration we are talking about a very crude device calibrated with questionable tools that very in power from round to round at best but throw in a non standard firearm and your calibration is far from it. Plus the so called calibration of the popper will change as each shooter engages it. So if each shooter is to have the same course of fire as everyone else then the poppers must be recalibrated otherwise the COF is not the same for each shooter.

Your last statement is not true. We need to ensure that a popper falls over with the minimum powerfactor required. That's why a calibration procedure exists, and a challenge exists. It CAN change between shooters - I have seen it do so. I was victim to both sides of this story last weekend alone.

Steel targets, above any other type of activator, is used to activate moving targets. Therefore, it must fall. Without having a way of determining and challenging the set points of a moving steel target - how would you handle it. The answer is how the rule book states. That's why a) steel is calibrated to UNDER minor values, that's why a calibration weapon and chrono tested ammo that is under is used, because it is known to be LOWER than PF. It is crude - but in this situation - crude is all you need. You are advocated measuring a road trip in micrometers and the needs just isn't there. Steel must fall. It is a level and therefore the force must be measured acceptably. The rules do the job.

Also - someone above mentioned what happens if the chrono calibration his the very top of the popper and it falls -

a. If the first shot by the calibration officer hits on or below the calibration zone and the popper falls, the popper is deemed to be properly calibrated, and it will be scored as a miss.

b. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits the popper anywhere on its frontal surface and the popper does not fall, the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire, once the popper has been recalibrated.

c. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits above the calibration zone, the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire once the Popper

has been recalibrated.

d. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer misses the popper altogether, another shot must be fired until one of 7a. 7b or 7c occurs.

[VegasOPM]

As a former match director and current assistant match director and RO. I keep a stash of 4 or 5 rounds loaded to 125pf (out of a G17) in my range bag all the time. Even though I shoot open, it is a G17 Open gun or I can find another G17 on pretty much any squad. While the system isn't fool proof, I can at least claim due diligence.

[West Texas Granny]

As this topic is about level 1 matches only, a chronograph is a good idea but keep in mind to use it you must have a calibration gun and ammo, same as for calibrating poppers.

Appendix C2 item 16.

Works when everyone is shooting the same powder,case,bullet,loaded by same person on the same press under identical circumstances with shooters using identical guns.

I'm sorry - I'm missing what you are saying. The reason we have a chronograph is so that you DON'T need to have the above. Chronograph makes sure you bullets weigh what they should and fly as fast as they should. We make sure the chronograph is accurate by having calibration ammo and gun that has been reasonably certified to make that speed.

I'm of the opinion it would be a good idea to have level 1's using the chronograph - occasionally. Stop local cheaters, get RO's used to running the chrono stage... lots of fun stuff.

Every step of a calibration process must be the same,under the same conditions using calibrated equipment to calibrate the equipment out of calibration. You cannot introduce variables or make up a process as you go along. Doing so invalidates the process.

[JAFO]

Every step of a calibration process must be the same,under the same conditions using calibrated equipment to calibrate the equipment out of calibration. You cannot introduce variables or make up a process as you go along. Doing so invalidates the process.

If I ever see "ISO-certified" on the rulebook, I quit.

Poppers aren't precision instruments. By your previous statements, the poppers should be recalibrated after every shooter since they've been shot and reset. Well, by that definition, doesn't the act of calibrating invalidate the calibration? After all, you just shot it and had to reset it. Most calibrated equipment is calibrated for one of two reasons - a predetermined time interval has passed (e.g., every 6 months), or the equipment has demonstrated itself to be out of tolerance. When a popper doesn't fall when hit in the calibration zone by a minor PF round, it's out of tolerance and needs to be adjusted. If you want to recalibrate it at that point, OK.

[ima45dv8]

Stop!

Entirely too logical!

You and Aztecdriver removed all reason to argue the point.

Bad, JAFO. Bad, dog.

Go sit in the corner....

=========================

It's a popper, ferChristSake.

Knock it down or call for a challenge to the calibration.

Wish for you want all day long, but the rules are clear...

[aztecdriver]

Every step of a calibration process must be the same,under the same conditions using calibrated equipment to calibrate the equipment out of calibration. You cannot introduce variables or make up a process as you go along. Doing so invalidates the process.

Once again - where is the introduction of variables. The process is printed in the rule book - Who is introducing variables? Are you saying that if NROI calibrates with a G17 and a WWB, that everyone must? That's ridiculous. As long the force smacking the front of that popper is less than 125 PF, as documented by a measuring device (Chronograph), it's good. Otherwise, there would only ever be ONE torque wrench used from manufacturer to the grave. This isn't sending a rocket to the moon. This is hitting a popper with a bullet that's supposed to be over 125 pf and it falling over - period.

Your application of "calibration" is impractical. Steel must fall. Simply calling hits on it will not suffice IN THIS SPORT. If you want to shoot steel targets and call hits on them - please see steel challenge.

ETA - oh yeah, what everyone else said too

Edited May 21, 2011 by aztecdriver

[kevin c]

Considering this thread led me to put together some chrono ammo for my club's level one matches. There are plenty of production shooters at our matches, so even if my own guns (the ones used to determine the PF of the load) aren't available, something comparable should be, and while it isn't quite what George and Mac point out that the rules really require, it will be close.

Details of the load in this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129965

[Chris iliff]

My problem, which I have expressed often, is that shooting a popper after it has been hit is not shooting the popper in the same condition that the that the competitor has shot it in.

I test Fire Doors as a part of my business. When you test a fire door (before a fire) you activate it, then you reset it and

activate it again, then you reset it. This is done to verify

that the person doing the check actually knows how to

properly reset the door.

Popper set-up should be done in the same manner. Set it up, test it, reset it and test it again. This handles the initial calibration ONLY. If the steel is a) properly set, it is painted between shooters and c) the shooters are all making minor or better, then a properly set steel MUST fall when it receives a full diameter hit in the calibration zone or

higher. Failure to fall with that hit should be grounds for a

reshoot. If the shooter hits it low and uses multiple hits to

drive it down, no reshoot.

Once the shooter has hit the steel in the proper area and it has NOT fallen, shooting it again as it stands is bogus. At this point a strong gust of wind could take it over, heck a fly fart may be all it takes.

It is up to the set up crew and the RM to make sure the steel is properly installed on the range so that calibrations

for failure to fall don't happen. Soft ground? Put a 1/4 sheet

of plywood under the steel, uneven ground? Shovel!

Ideally we need a device that will impart a specific impact to the steel every time. Sort of a ballistic hammer so that at the beginning of each squad, the steel can all be verified. We are better now than we used to be, at least calibration ammo has to be no more than minor (115 to 125PF)

Anyway, my rant is over.

This is my favorite post. It's the only post that shows a true understanding of what is actually happening to the popper. With this understanding the rule should be rewritten.

So here goes: Coach is dead nuts accurate for level one matches. Grap the first gun you see in the offending division and shoot the popper. All other rules in book about the HIT on the popper in question by the calibrating officer apply.

Any thing above this level has a Chrono. Chrono's determine the miss. All hits in calibration zone that leave the steel standing are scored as hit. Competitor passes Chrono he is good to go!! Just like the steel fell.

Scoresheet has a box to record PFM. PFM stands for Power Factor Miss. All steel hit in calibration zone and left standing is recorded here Competitor does not pass Chrono he gets the MIKE. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

There is no other way. Once you understand that the original hit changes the POPPER and that even resetting the popper to the condition that it was in at the start of that competitors run is impossible, letting the Chrono decide is the best solution.

I'd use this at level 1 if it had a Chrono, but Coach's method is faster.

I thought of this after a dead center shot on a popper during a State match. I probably lost a second or more before I put one more dead center and watched it fall. On The first shot the damn thing kicked up and rocked back, as posted above, a mouse fart would have knocked it over. I definitely would have lost a challenge.

The rule IMHO was written using the best common practice at that time. When you take things into account and really consider how the popper reacts to the first shot (changing it's set) and then the fact that it is never set the same way twice, no matter how much we think it is, the Chrono and

PFM's are the way to go at Chrono matches.

As an aside: Coach is the hands down best RM I have ever lost a call to as a competitor. The guy knows the rules and treats everyone the same. Works his butt off and makes Indiana the "must go to" State match.

[ac4wordplay]

...

Scoresheet has a box to record PFM. PFM stands for Power Factor Miss. All steel hit in calibration zone and left standing is recorded here Competitor does not pass Chrono he gets the MIKE. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

...

I'm not sure I understand the "Power Factor Miss" concept.

If competing in Production and shooting light loads (say, 9mm close to minimum PF), and you don't make 125 PF at chrono (is this what you meant by "does not pass Chrono"?), then aren't you shooting for fun anyway?

IF: chrono @ < 125 PF

THEN: shoot for no score

Scoring a popper a "miss" seems unnecessary at this point (which is why I think I may have misunderstood your idea).

If you are applying this to competitors in other divisions who were (expecting to be) shooting Major PF, but chrono results are low (say, 164 PF), and are calling *THIS* "does not pass chrono"... then again I'm confused...

I feel like I'm sleepy and just not "getting it". How does it work?

Best,

ac

[Nik Habicht]

I think 4trax' concept was -- subminor at chrono = miss (really, shooting for no score); anything minor and up converts those power factor mikes into hits, i.e alphas.

[Jim Norman]

PF miss would be this if I understand correctly. If you hit the popper in the zone and it fails to fall you get a PFM. At chrono IF you make at last min PF you get the hit, if you don't make PF you are shooting for fun. Obviously anyone shooting minor is going to either get the hit or be shooting for fun. A shooter that declares major, so long as he is above minimum PF will get the hit. He may wind up being scored minor if that chrono result says 164.9, but it is unlikely he'll be shooting for fun.

With calibration now being a sub minor PF this makes perfect sense.

[Chris iliff]

Ahh, good point, and one I overlooked!!! Yes, below 125 at Chrono and Production/minor would be shooting for fun.

That really doesn't effect the PFM concept.

If you made your PF at Chrono, those hits would count. PFM marks are ignored. If you didn't make your PF, you'd be shooting for fun and get the PFM penalties.

If your division has a MAJOR PF and you miss the 165 minimum PF at Chrono, then those noted PFM marks count as misses. If you make your stated PF, they are ignored.

In simplest terms, if you make your PF at Chrono, no worries. If you don't, you get the penalty.

We already have to adjust scores because Chrono is not always the 1st stage for every competitor. This is no different. It's not complicated and very easy to administer. It would also ELIMINATE popper challenges and the resulting delays. Let the Chrono decide, it makes all the associated issues of human and mechanical popper problems become irrelevant. IMHO

[Chris iliff]

PF miss would be this if I understand correctly. If you hit the popper in the zone and it fails to fall you get a PFM. At chrono IF you make at last min PF you get the hit, if you don't make PF you are shooting for fun. Obviously anyone shooting minor is going to either get the hit or be shooting for fun. A shooter that declares major, so long as he is above minimum PF will get the hit. He may wind up being

scored minor if that chrono result says 164.9, but it is

unlikely he'll be shooting for fun.

With calibration now being a sub minor PF this makes perfect sense.

Geez, I'm a long winded bastard!! Just read Jim's post, he nails it perfect.

[ac4wordplay]

Thanks to everyone for the clarification, I now see that I understood it correctly from the beginning but got caught up in the "PFM/shooting for fun" area.

Best,

ac

[Nik Habicht]

If your division has a MAJOR PF and you miss the 165 minimum PF at Chrono, then those noted PFM marks count as misses. If you make your stated PF, they are ignored.

That part makes absolutely no sense, since we don't calibrate steel with major loads, and since we'd now be treating competitors very differently depending on how they signed up. Competitor A declares minor in Limited, Competitor B declares major in Limited. At chrono both make 164.9. Both of them left the same piece of steel standing -- but now they're scored differently based on how they signed up?

We already have to adjust scores because Chrono is not always the 1st stage for every competitor. This is no different. It's not complicated and very easy to administer. It would also ELIMINATE popper challenges and the resulting delays. Let the Chrono decide, it makes all the associated issues of human and mechanical popper problems become irrelevant. IMHO

It would also eliminate the use of poppers as activators. Popper challenges aren't an issue, if the steel is of good quality, set, calibrated and managed properly throughout the match....

I don't think I fired any popper challenge shots during the Mid-Atlantic Sectional; I did have one crew that was aggressive about maintaining their steel on Sunday, when we were running our largest squads -- and they asked me to recalibrate their poppers once, at lunchtime, because they had determined that the steel had shifted, and corrected the problem, before a competitor got bit....

If you do the job right before the match starts (including before every fresh evolution of shooters, i.e. every morning, or every morning/afternoon for matches shot in half-day format) and then have a plan to monitor for and identify problems before they bite competitors, this isn't hard or time-consuming....

[sperman]

... All hits in calibration zone that leave the steel standing are scored as hit...

How are you going to determine if the hit was in the calibration zone? Are we going to have overlays for poppers?

[Chris iliff]

... All hits in calibration zone that leave the steel standing are scored as hit...

How are you going to determine if the hit was in the calibration zone? Are we going to have overlays for poppers?

This is why we paint all steel and why we have RO's. I don't see this as a problem. Overlays??? A little much, but infinitely better than a reshoot, IMHO.

[Chris iliff]

If your division has a MAJOR PF and you miss the 165 minimum PF at Chrono, then those noted PFM marks count as misses. If you make your stated PF, they are ignored.

That part makes absolutely no sense, since we don't calibrate steel with major loads, and since we'd now be treating competitors very differently depending on how they signed up. Competitor A declares minor in Limited, Competitor B declares major in Limited. At chrono both make 164.9. Both of them left the same piece of steel standing -- but now they're scored differently based on how they signed up?

We already have to adjust scores because Chrono is not always the 1st stage for every competitor. This is no different. It's not complicated and very easy to administer. It would also ELIMINATE popper challenges and the resulting delays. Let the Chrono decide, it makes all the associated issues of human and mechanical popper problems become irrelevant. IMHO

It would also eliminate the use of poppers as activators. Popper challenges aren't an issue, if the steel is of good quality, set, calibrated and managed properly throughout the match....

I don't think I fired any popper challenge shots during the Mid-Atlantic Sectional; I did have one crew that was aggressive about maintaining their steel on Sunday, when we were running our largest squads -- and they asked me to recalibrate their poppers once, at lunchtime, because they had determined that the steel had shifted, and corrected the problem, before a competitor got bit....

If you do the job right before the match starts (including before every fresh evolution of shooters, i.e. every morning, or every morning/afternoon for matches shot in half-day format) and then have a plan to monitor for and identify problems before they bite competitors, this isn't hard or time-consuming....

AHHH, thanks Nik, I got off on my thinking a little bit and you are on it. Yes, the PFM would only be used if you missed the 125 PF, regardless of what you signed up for Major or Minor. This has to be the case because we use subminor for the calibration. An argument could be made for an even lower PFM of below 115 before you'd be assessed the penalty. But with this method 125 would be fine with me.

I don't see the elimination of poppers as activators. If the hit is good and it doesnt fall, that's REF and a reshoot is in order per the rules. This does happen and I think there is a thread on this. Not sure what the general resolution was on that thread.

Mainly I'm concerned with the lack of any ability to duplicate the set of a popper. It is impossible. Plus, it is not in the same set after the competitors round hits it, therefore, our mode of determining is flawed, very flawed when you take that into account,IMHO.

Some matches are great and maybe there are no challenges, but we have all been to the "challenge fest" match. I do not fault any match or crew. I do however fault Mother Nature. I've seen the best set ups fail because of bad weather, loosened spikes, and bad equipment. By bad equipment I am referring to a popper that is getting shot by a high number of shooters in one match. Maybe it is wallowing out some at the pivot point. Not enough to notice, but enough to cause a reshoot or two, maybe three or four, over the course of a big match.

With this idea, we take all that away and the match would flow smoother.

Thanks Nik, you brought out a good point, I'm mad at myself for not catching your first example.

[sperman]

So in your proposal, even an very slight edge hit woudl be scored as a hit?

I completely agree that there are some flaws with our current popper rules, but I'm not 100% sure what you are proposing is an improvement. We've all been burned by improperly set poppers. Some of them results in a reshoot, others result in a bad run because we shot them down when they would have failed a calibration.

I also don't support any more differences for level 1 matches. Many people already believe "anything goes" at a level 1 match. More level one exemptions just add fuel to that fire.

[Chris iliff]

So in your proposal, even an very slight edge hit woudl be scored as a hit?

I completely agree that there are some flaws with our current popper rules, but I'm not 100% sure what you are proposing is an improvement. We've all been burned by improperly set poppers. Some of them results in a reshoot, others result in a bad run because we shot them down when they would have failed a calibration.

I also don't support any more differences for level 1 matches. Many people already believe "anything goes" at a level 1 match. More level one exemptions just add fuel to that fire.

An edge hit is debatable, there could be many solutions for that. I guess you could say yes and call it a "HIT", or you could have the RO determine it like he determines any other questionable hit. I'm for the RO's myself.

What you leave out of your examples is the FAILED challenge. The failed challenge is the crux of the matter. It's the whole point in examining the rule. You, I and everyone else know that there is a KINK in the rule. I just offered a solution that is easy to do and does away with the valid arguments about why the original rule is not fair to the competitor. I put it up here to solicit some serious thought and feedback. I appreciate your input.

As for level one matches, I don't attend bogus matches run outside of the rules, so I'm not sure I follow your logic. I don't see it as an exemption, just a process to fascillitate the flow of a match. Heck, if its a hit, let it be a hit, I'm all for that at a level one without a Chrono. IMHO

Thanks guys for all your input.

I know it's not USPSA, but I remember one of the Army shooters winning SC on an edge hit that barely showed up. But, I digress.

[Chris iliff]

So to sum up and get it straight.

All poppers hit in calibration zone and left standing get the points. Plus it is noted on the scoresheet as a PFM. Competitor Chrono's PF 125 or higher it is ignored. Below PF 125 and competitor is shooting for fun anyway. Score it as a miss.

Activating poppers that don't fall with a hit in calibration zone get a reshoot.

Level 1 matches are already assumed to operate within PF requirements although there is almost never a Chrono. Shooter gets the benefit.

I could see maybe a problem with the rare competitor that would abuse this with mouse fart loads. Not one single club I shoot at would tolerate this unsportsmanlike behavior. A "1" per match provision maybe for locals? Or, here where I shoot, we'd have polite conversations. They wouldn't last a whole match at most Indiana clubs I'm guessing.

[Nik Habicht]

If your division has a MAJOR PF and you miss the 165 minimum PF at Chrono, then those noted PFM marks count as misses. If you make your stated PF, they are ignored.

That part makes absolutely no sense, since we don't calibrate steel with major loads, and since we'd now be treating competitors very differently depending on how they signed up. Competitor A declares minor in Limited, Competitor B declares major in Limited. At chrono both make 164.9. Both of them left the same piece of steel standing -- but now they're scored differently based on how they signed up?

We already have to adjust scores because Chrono is not always the 1st stage for every competitor. This is no different. It's not complicated and very easy to administer. It would also ELIMINATE popper challenges and the resulting delays. Let the Chrono decide, it makes all the associated issues of human and mechanical popper problems become irrelevant. IMHO

It would also eliminate the use of poppers as activators. Popper challenges aren't an issue, if the steel is of good quality, set, calibrated and managed properly throughout the match....

I don't think I fired any popper challenge shots during the Mid-Atlantic Sectional; I did have one crew that was aggressive about maintaining their steel on Sunday, when we were running our largest squads -- and they asked me to recalibrate their poppers once, at lunchtime, because they had determined that the steel had shifted, and corrected the problem, before a competitor got bit....

If you do the job right before the match starts (including before every fresh evolution of shooters, i.e. every morning, or every morning/afternoon for matches shot in half-day format) and then have a plan to monitor for and identify problems before they bite competitors, this isn't hard or time-consuming....

AHHH, thanks Nik, I got off on my thinking a little bit and you are on it. Yes, the PFM would only be used if you missed the 125 PF, regardless of what you signed up for Major or Minor. This has to be the case because we use subminor for the calibration. An argument could be made for an even lower PFM of below 115 before you'd be assessed the penalty. But with this method 125 would be fine with me.

I don't see the elimination of poppers as activators. If the hit is good and it doesnt fall, that's REF and a reshoot is in order per the rules. This does happen and I think there is a thread on this. Not sure what the general resolution was on that thread.

Mainly I'm concerned with the lack of any ability to duplicate the set of a popper. It is impossible. Plus, it is not in the same set after the competitors round hits it, therefore, our mode of determining is flawed, very flawed when you take that into account,IMHO.

Some matches are great and maybe there are no challenges, but we have all been to the "challenge fest" match. I do not fault any match or crew. I do however fault Mother Nature. I've seen the best set ups fail because of bad weather, loosened spikes, and bad equipment. By bad equipment I am referring to a popper that is getting shot by a high number of shooters in one match. Maybe it is wallowing out some at the pivot point. Not enough to notice, but enough to cause a reshoot or two, maybe three or four, over the course of a big match.

With this idea, we take all that away and the match would flow smoother.

Thanks Nik, you brought out a good point, I'm mad at myself for not catching your first example.

So now we score poppers differently depending on whether or not they're activators? So the guy who marginally hit the calibration zone on an activating popper gets a reshoot, the guy who gets the same hit on the next popper over doesn't? That doesn't seem like it'll work.....

Also -- edge hits score the full five points in your scenario, right?

There's much wrong with poppers, heck with steel in general -- but the only perfect solution would be to get rid of steel entirely. I'm not on board with that. Properly set and managed and calibrated steel doesn't have to be a problem.....