Popper Calibration & Challenge

[Skydiver]

Was at one match were the steel just wasn't falling, went ahead a doubletapped it just because it was faster then coming back for something that didn't fall.

If it was a popper, that was your choice to double tap it as allowed by Appendix C1.6.a. You could have also just hit it once and challenged the calibration after "Range is Clear" as allowed by C1.6.c.

6.If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when hit, a competitor has three alternatives:

a.The popper is shot again until it falls. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”.

b.The popper is left standing but the competitor does not challenge the calibration. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”, with the subject popper scored as a miss.

c.The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibration. In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the course of fire. If the competitor or any other person violates this rule, the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire will be scored “as shot”. If the popper falls for any non-interference reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

[Chills1994]

that power argument comes up in every popper calibration thread.

I don't know about you guys but at best, a popper is a crude instrument for measuring PF. We have better tools to measure that... chronographs.

if you change the collection process for chrono ammo (to say strictly random from dropped magazines during a CoF), then to me at least, then that takes the onus off every popper out there to ensure everyone is legitimately at least shooting 125 + PF ammo. which by the way doesn't ensure those that have declared major, are actually shooting major. again, goes to my crude instrument argument.

Two hypotheticals for ya'll to mull over:

1. shooters shoots at a popper. the bullet clearly hits the circular calibration zone, but it remains standing. shooter continues on with the CoF. after "ifclearhammerdownholster, rangeisclear!' shooter asks for a calibration. MD/RM/RO shows ups with a 9mm and calibration ammo and shoots at the popper but clearly that bullet strikes the popper at the very top most part of the popper and the popper falls.

What then?

2. same situation as above basically, but let's say a strong gust of wind knocks the popper over before the MD/RM shows up with the calibration gun and ammo....what then?

should the resetting of poppers and other moving targets be the sole responsibility of the CRO and RO (clipboard commado) at bigger matches?

I am a match director now. I guess I'm gonna have to survey my shooters at the next match to see what they want me to do:

A. drag a gun and calibration ammo with me to each local match

B. just call it a range equipment malfunction and give a reshoot automatically.

I'm sure I will have my detractors who will get their panties in a wad for not following the rules to the letter, if the majority of my shooters would rather me do choice B.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Chills1994

[Skydiver]

that power argument comes up in every popper calibration thread.

I don't know about you guys but at best, a popper is a crude instrument for measuring PF. We have better tools to measure that... chronographs.

if you change the collection process for chrono ammo (to say strictly random from dropped magazines during a CoF), then to me at least, then that takes the onus off every popper out there to ensure everyone is legitimately at least shooting 125 + PF ammo. which by the way doesn't ensure those that have declared major, are actually shooting major. again, goes to my crude instrument argument.

Two hypotheticals for ya'll to mull over:

1. shooters shoots at a popper. the bullet clearly hits the circular calibration zone, but it remains standing. shooter continues on with the CoF. after "ifclearhammerdownholster, rangeisclear!' shooter asks for a calibration. MD/RM/RO shows ups with a 9mm and calibration ammo and shoots at the popper but clearly that bullet strikes the popper at the very top most part of the popper and the popper falls.

What then?

See C1.7.c. Reshoot for the shooter after the popper is recalibrated.

2. same situation as above basically, but let's say a strong gust of wind knocks the popper over before the MD/RM shows up with the calibration gun and ammo....what then?

The last sentence of C1.6.c clearly states that a reshoot is ordered.

[Skydiver]

that power argument comes up in every popper calibration thread.

I don't know about you guys but at best, a popper is a crude instrument for measuring PF. We have better tools to measure that... chronographs.

if you change the collection process for chrono ammo (to say strictly random from dropped magazines during a CoF), then to me at least, then that takes the onus off every popper out there to ensure everyone is legitimately at least shooting 125 + PF ammo. which by the way doesn't ensure those that have declared major, are actually shooting major. again, goes to my crude instrument argument.

I completely agree with you that the popper is a crude instrument for measuring PF, but until we can come up with cheap chronographs that can be place anywhere downrange, or some kind of radar system that tracks bullets in flight and records their speed whichever way they are fired with a CoF, the poppers are the best we have right now to spot check at least a minimum of 125 PF.

As for the collection process, what do you do to shooters who shoot revolver and generally use all their rounds before reloading? Or for single stack shooters who will at most only leave one or two in the mag that they drop? Keep following these shooters around until you pick up 8 bullets from them? And for other shooters do you DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct for if they start firing off all their rounds (what IDPA call "dumping" if I recall correctly) to make sure they only ever drop empty mags?

I agree that a more random collection process should be implemented, and there have been some creative and fair suggestions made in other threads. I'm too lazy right now to try to find those threads since I've got to get up in a couple of hours for a long drive to a match.

[Chills1994]

skydiver wrote:

See C1.7.c. Reshoot for the shooter after the popper is recalibrated.

hmmn...okay...so theoretically if you were a MD/RO/RM who didn't exactly agree with the whole principle of USPSA's popper calibration procedure and you feel that a shooter should get a reshoot automatically, that it is a range equipment malfunction, you could deliberately shoot at the top of the popper, the popper falls and the shooter gets a reshoot. and theoretically, all of the people in the peanut gallery who are witnesses to the calibration get to see you play dumb as you say, "aww, shucks, I musta jerked the trigger. the competitor gets a reshoot. tape and reset everything, everybody!"

and the peanut gallery folks are none the wiser.

I'm not saying that's what I would do.

but theoretically, that's possible.

along those same lines if you're an RO and you like a particular shooter or you're buds with him, you could shoot the popper high on purpose out of the calibration zone so he gets a reshoot.

or if you hate the shooter, you could shoot as high as possible in the calibration zone, hoping that the popper does fall over and the shooter racks up a miss and possibly a bunch of FTE's for not engaging any other targets that might have activated.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Chills1994

[Olivers_AR]

The competitor three ahead of me did challenge and it was denied. Was shooting 115g and figured that it was easier to go ahead and doubletap. Yea could have challanged, but figured it was easier to take the time then take the chance that it wouldn't be upheld.

Was at one match were the steel just wasn't falling, went ahead a doubletapped it just because it was faster then coming back for something that didn't fall.

If it was a popper, that was your choice to double tap it as allowed by Appendix C1.6.a. You could have also just hit it once and challenged the calibration after "Range is Clear" as allowed by C1.6.c.

6.If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when hit, a competitor has three alternatives:

a.The popper is shot again until it falls. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”.

b.The popper is left standing but the competitor does not challenge the calibration. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”, with the subject popper scored as a miss.

c.The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibration. In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the course of fire. If the competitor or any other person violates this rule, the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire will be scored “as shot”. If the popper falls for any non-interference reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

[Dan Hefta]

In my experience, most of the time there is a popper calibration issue it's almost allways a low or edge hit and the shooter looses the challange, which IMHO is fair. What I hate about the calibration challenge is when shooters know it was an edge or low hit and they still make the challenge anyways, delaying the match for a chance at a reshoot... that really bugs me.

[Skydiver]

skydiver wrote:

See C1.7.c. Reshoot for the shooter after the popper is recalibrated.

hmmn...okay...so theoretically if you were a MD/RO/RM who didn't exactly agree with the whole principle of USPSA's popper calibration procedure and you feel that a shooter should get a reshoot automatically, that it is a range equipment malfunction, you could deliberately shoot at the top of the popper, the popper falls and the shooter gets a reshoot. and theoretically, all of the people in the peanut gallery who are witnesses to the calibration get to see you play dumb as you say, "aww, shucks, I musta jerked the trigger. the competitor gets a reshoot. tape and reset everything, everybody!"

and the peanut gallery folks are none the wiser.

I'm not saying that's what I would do.

but theoretically, that's possible.

along those same lines if you're an RO and you like a particular shooter or you're buds with him, you could shoot the popper high on purpose out of the calibration zone so he gets a reshoot.

or if you hate the shooter, you could shoot as high as possible in the calibration zone, hoping that the popper does fall over and the shooter racks up a miss and possibly a bunch of FTE's for not engaging any other targets that might have activated.

If the calibration officer hits it high (deliberately or not) the steel needs to be re-calibrated: that means the mechanism fiddled with and shot again to ensure correct calibration. So the calibration officer really has to like the shooter. :-)

Of course, we know that a match official doesn't do that because in the Range Officer's creed is: " I shall put aside personal prejudices and act as an impartial judge at all times. "

[mhs]

skydiver wrote:

See C1.7.c. Reshoot for the shooter after the popper is recalibrated.

hmmn...okay...so theoretically if you were a MD/RO/RM who didn't exactly agree with the whole principle of USPSA's popper calibration procedure and you feel that a shooter should get a reshoot automatically, that it is a range equipment malfunction, you could deliberately shoot at the top of the popper, the popper falls and the shooter gets a reshoot. and theoretically, all of the people in the peanut gallery who are witnesses to the calibration get to see you play dumb as you say, "aww, shucks, I musta jerked the trigger. the competitor gets a reshoot. tape and reset everything, everybody!"

and the peanut gallery folks are none the wiser.

I'm not saying that's what I would do.

but theoretically, that's possible.

along those same lines if you're an RO and you like a particular shooter or you're buds with him, you could shoot the popper high on purpose out of the calibration zone so he gets a reshoot.

or if you hate the shooter, you could shoot as high as possible in the calibration zone, hoping that the popper does fall over and the shooter racks up a miss and possibly a bunch of FTE's for not engaging any other targets that might have activated.

The rules are written with the intent that they will be followed by the match officials. It's difficult to imagine a set of rules that could not be misused by dishonest officials. All sorts of abuse are theoretically possible, but ultimately our sport will not work without honest officials.

[Flexmoney]

I'm sure I will have my detractors who will get their panties in a wad for not following the rules to the letter, if the majority of my shooters would rather me do choice B.

I know you have a history on this...which gives you bias. Best to stick with the rule book.

If the rule book needs changed, work on bringing that change about.

[spanky]

In my experience, most of the time there is a popper calibration issue it's almost allways a low or edge hit and the shooter looses the challange, which IMHO is fair. What I hate about the calibration challenge is when shooters know it was an edge or low hit and they still make the challenge anyways, delaying the match for a chance at a reshoot... that really bugs me.

Why? A hit is a hit. Edge or center, as long as it's in the calibration zone it should be fine.

What really sucks is FOUR hits on a popper with 140pf 9mm that stays up til the calibration gun comes out.

[Nik Habicht]

In my experience, most of the time there is a popper calibration issue it's almost allways a low or edge hit and the shooter looses the challange, which IMHO is fair. What I hate about the calibration challenge is when shooters know it was an edge or low hit and they still make the challenge anyways, delaying the match for a chance at a reshoot... that really bugs me.

Why? A hit is a hit. Edge or center, as long as it's in the calibration zone it should be fine.

What really sucks is FOUR hits on a popper with 140pf 9mm that stays up til the calibration gun comes out.

How do we know it's 140 pf? :P Were those four rounds fired over the chrono? To paraphrase George Jones -- the only rounds in a match that make power factor are the ones fired over the chrono. The rest of the rounds fired -- those are presumed to be equivalent as a group, but the chrono can't speak to any individual round fired in the match, that isn't fired over the chrono.....

[spanky]

In my experience, most of the time there is a popper calibration issue it's almost allways a low or edge hit and the shooter looses the challange, which IMHO is fair. What I hate about the calibration challenge is when shooters know it was an edge or low hit and they still make the challenge anyways, delaying the match for a chance at a reshoot... that really bugs me.

Why? A hit is a hit. Edge or center, as long as it's in the calibration zone it should be fine.

What really sucks is FOUR hits on a popper with 140pf 9mm that stays up til the calibration gun comes out.

How do we know it's 140 pf? :P Were those four rounds fired over the chrono? To paraphrase George Jones -- the only rounds in a match that make power factor are the ones fired over the chrono. The rest of the rounds fired -- those are presumed to be equivalent as a group, but the chrono can't speak to any individual round fired in the match, that isn't fired over the chrono.....

I imagine it's possible the 4 rounds of Win White Box that I hit the popper with were underpowered versus all the others I've shot over chronos in the past couple years.

Edited May 9, 2011 by spanky

[Chills1994]

mhs wrote:

The rules are written with the intent that they will be followed by the match officials. It's difficult to imagine a set of rules that could not be misused by dishonest officials. All sorts of abuse are theoretically possible, but ultimately our sport will not work without honest officials.

I agree on all counts.

as far as popper calibration thread goes, I normally post my hatcam video of me at a major match where I shot a popper a good 6 times or more in the calibration zone and it finally went down. I was a newb to USPSA then having been a member for about 7 months. Anywhoo...video google is no more. Maybe one of these days I will upload it to youtube.

[bEDIT to add this:][/b]

just now doing a key word search in just the thread titles and narrowing it down further to just the USPSA/IPSC rules forum, this is what I got:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&section=search&do=search&fromsearch=1

just 9 hits, really. but what gets me is the first thread is way back in 2003. so I guess that means for almost ten years now (or for as long as this forum has been up and running) popper calibration has been an issue...for ....somebody.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

I'm sure I will have my detractors who will get their panties in a wad for not following the rules to the letter, if the majority of my shooters would rather me do choice B.

I know you have a history on this...which gives you bias. Best to stick with the rule book.

If the rule book needs changed, work on bringing that change about.

Oh, yeah, I have. I think I either emailed or PM'ed Gary Stevens about it, probably last summer or fall when a BoD meeting was coming up. I never did follow up on it, or checked on the BoD minutes.

Yeah, I agree. best to stick with the rulebook.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Chills1994

[West Texas Granny]

But look at all of the time and resources that are required when a simple called hit would suffice. Not to mention the fact that the calibration Is never exact.

You can not leave something like that up to a call, it would have to be painted after each shooter, as is, it should only take 3 to 5 minutes before the match and should last the whole match.

If you hit low shooting minor it might not fall, requiring a second more precise shot.

If you hit low shooting major it most likely will fall.

One of the core principals of USPSA is power (power is rewarded).

I am happy with it as is.

I must disagree. I remember one thread in regard to holster placement where the RO had the option to say nay or ya. In fact throughout the rule book that option exists. Thus no rule is etched in stone.

On the issue of power being rewarded is a fallacy. A hit in the A zone for minor and major is the same. So how is power rewarded when minor receives the same score for an A zone hit.

Finally these poppers must be recaliberated after each shooter if each shooter is going to have an equal chance at a COF.

[bluenite]

If poppers need to be recaliberated after each shooter, they have not been setup and staked properly.

B, C and D hits on paper targets do reward power.

Plates stars and the like give an advantage to the shooters, shooting minor.

There are to few rewards for shooting major now, takeing out poppers diminishes the sport further, eventuly leading to “anyone shooting major will be at a disaventage” then what do you say to a new shooter who’s only gun is a .45 and only ammo is factory, “suck it up and buy a new gun?”

[Thomas H]

I must disagree. I remember one thread in regard to holster placement where the RO had the option to say nay or ya. In fact throughout the rule book that option exists. Thus no rule is etched in stone.

On the issue of power being rewarded is a fallacy. A hit in the A zone for minor and major is the same. So how is power rewarded when minor receives the same score for an A zone hit.

Finally these poppers must be recaliberated after each shooter if each shooter is going to have an equal chance at a COF.

First: Just because an online discussion said that an RO had a option doesn't mean there actually was one. Indeed, it doesn't mean the rulebook isn't clear.

Second: Just because the rule book gives options in some places doesn't mean that it gives options in all places. As such, "Thus no rule is etched in stone" while literally true, isn't actually true in the way you mean it.

Third: A perfect hit should indeed work whether major or minor. It is how non-perfect hits are treated where the difference between major and minor shows up---and as has been discussed, B, C, and D zones, plus low hits on poppers, all show that difference.

Fourth: Poppers do not need to be re-calibrated between each shooter, for reasons that have already been stated.

I'm not sure how those objections relate to the original comment, which was that you can't leave something like that up to a "call" for a hit. (Other than saying that ROs have options simply means that in terms of "called hits" we are now making hits subjective, which sounds like a bad idea.)

[West Texas Granny]

I must disagree. I remember one thread in regard to holster placement where the RO had the option to say nay or ya. In fact throughout the rule book that option exists. Thus no rule is etched in stone.

On the issue of power being rewarded is a fallacy. A hit in the A zone for minor and major is the same. So how is power rewarded when minor receives the same score for an A zone hit.

Finally these poppers must be recaliberated after each shooter if each shooter is going to have an equal chance at a COF.

First: Just because an online discussion said that an RO had a option doesn't mean there actually was one. Indeed, it doesn't mean the rulebook isn't clear.

Second: Just because the rule book gives options in some places doesn't mean that it gives options in all places. As such, "Thus no rule is etched in stone" while literally true, isn't actually true in the way you mean it.

Third: A perfect hit should indeed work whether major or minor. It is how non-perfect hits are treated where the difference between major and minor shows up---and as has been discussed, B, C, and D zones, plus low hits on poppers, all show that difference.

Fourth: Poppers do not need to be re-calibrated between each shooter, for reasons that have already been stated.

I'm not sure how those objections relate to the original comment, which was that you can't leave something like that up to a "call" for a hit. (Other than saying that ROs have options simply means that in terms of "called hits" we are now making hits subjective, which sounds like a bad idea.)

I provided the extra arguments in support of my statement that it should be called a hit even it doesn't fall. As far as calibration we are talking about a very crude device calibrated with questionable tools that very in power from round to round at best but throw in a non standard firearm and your calibration is far from it. Plus the so called calibration of the popper will change as each shooter engages it. So if each shooter is to have the same course of fire as everyone else then the poppers must be recalibrated otherwise the COF is not the same for each shooter.

[Chills1994]

ensure the poppers are painted between shooters. a shooter gets a good hit in the calibration zone and it doesn't fall, call it a range equipment malfunction, right then and there, stop him, and give the shooter a reshoot.

reset and paste the targets, then lighten up that balky popper and get a closer look as to where it was hit. call the on deck guy up to shoot, let the previous shooter go re-load up his mags, and put him at the bottom of the line up. then he gets his/her reshoot.

I would think that would be simple enough.

I think....

and for those in the "but...but...BUTT!! poppers measure power!" camp, then have a stipulation written right there in the rules, that as soon as that happen, the RO or clipboard commando whips out a baggie and collects the ammo out of that guy's mag right after unload and show clear. that ammo then becomes his chrono ammo.

[Skydiver]

and for those in the "but...but...BUTT!! poppers measure power!" camp, then have a stipulation written right there in the rules, that as soon as that happen, the RO or clipboard commando whips out a baggie and collects the ammo out of that guy's mag right after unload and show clear. that ammo then becomes his chrono ammo.

That's an interesting suggestion for when to collect chrono ammo.

[Chills1994]

yeah, thanks! just an idea that popped into my head.

[LPatterson]

and for those in the "but...but...BUTT!! poppers measure power!" camp, then have a stipulation written right there in the rules, that as soon as that happen, the RO or clipboard commando whips out a baggie and collects the ammo out of that guy's mag right after unload and show clear. that ammo then becomes his chrono ammo.

That's an interesting suggestion for when to collect chrono ammo.

And it is even supported by rule 5.8.1.5.

[mactiger]

that power argument comes up in every popper calibration thread.

I don't know about you guys but at best, a popper is a crude instrument for measuring PF. We have better tools to measure that... chronographs.

if you change the collection process for chrono ammo (to say strictly random from dropped magazines during a CoF), then to me at least, then that takes the onus off every popper out there to ensure everyone is legitimately at least shooting 125 + PF ammo. which by the way doesn't ensure those that have declared major, are actually shooting major. again, goes to my crude instrument argument.

Two hypotheticals for ya'll to mull over:

1. shooters shoots at a popper. the bullet clearly hits the circular calibration zone, but it remains standing. shooter continues on with the CoF. after "ifclearhammerdownholster, rangeisclear!' shooter asks for a calibration. MD/RM/RO shows ups with a 9mm and calibration ammo and shoots at the popper but clearly that bullet strikes the popper at the very top most part of the popper and the popper falls.

What then?

2. same situation as above basically, but let's say a strong gust of wind knocks the popper over before the MD/RM shows up with the calibration gun and ammo....what then?

should the resetting of poppers and other moving targets be the sole responsibility of the CRO and RO (clipboard commado) at bigger matches?

I am a match director now. I guess I'm gonna have to survey my shooters at the next match to see what they want me to do:

A. drag a gun and calibration ammo with me to each local match

B. just call it a range equipment malfunction and give a reshoot automatically.

I'm sure I will have my detractors who will get their panties in a wad for not following the rules to the letter, if the majority of my shooters would rather me do choice B.

As Flex said, best to stick with the rules and drag that gun and ammo with you. It won't weigh that much. Besides, if you go with choice "B", then you aren't running a USPSA approved match, and the classifier won't count for your competitors.

Doing anything but following the rules, deliberately, is cheating.

Troy

[bluenite]

As this topic is about level 1 matches only, a chronograph is a good idea but keep in mind to use it you must have a calibration gun and ammo, same as for calibrating poppers.

Appendix C2 item 16.