Popper Calibration & Challenge

[Dan Burwell]

According to the Rulebook, the calibration ammo must be between 115-125.

Read it again, it does not say "must"

when tested through each designated handgun, should

achieve a power factor between 115.0 and 125.0 to qualify.

I know I should eat breakfast everyday but I don't

[Skydiver]

Good point! Time to load up some 165PF calibration ammo. :-)

[Joe4d]

I cant believe someone involved in this sport enough to be a Match director doesn't have access to a 9mm and a chrono and a box of Remington 115 UMC ball ammo which will come in pretty light. Or at least have a buddy with the equipment. If that is too much of a burden, dont use poppers. There is a rule book, there is a rule, there are no level one exemptions, its not that complicated.

[Gary Stevens]

Does anyone (like AA or DC Ammo) make any 115-120 PF "calibration" ammo? My 9mm stuff runs about 130-135 PF. I suppose I could make up some special calibration ammo by downloading just a bit, but it hardly seems worth the bother if I can just buy some that I know will work since I hardly shoot 9mm anymore.

According to the Rulebook, the calibration ammo must be between 115-125.

Actually C-1 (2) uses the word "should" be between 115-125. (Duh should have completed the entire thread before posting)

Another case of premature pontification I guess.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Gary Stevens

[coldchar]

At my match set up, I whip out my Icore (120 pf) or IDPA (now 105 pf) 38 special handloads which I know do not make USPSA PF. Of course that means you have to find some old timer walking around with a wheel gun.

Jim G

[Matt P.]

Personally I feel that you either follow the rules as stated in the book or you dont. If you choose not to follow the rule, then to not piss people off, you need a club standard. (I'm not in favor of that)

I think sometimes the club rules at a level I match are so loose that competitors don't really understand the real rules when attending a larger match.

I have rarely seen a level I match follow the calibration and chrono ammo (and gun) rule.

[Coach]

When I RO at a club match, which is often, and there is a calibration issue it is almost always with a 9mm. In the last three years I cannot remember a time that it was not a 9mm. I take that gun and shoot the popper from that position. Rarely once or twice out of 20-30 times has the popper not gone down. I give them a reshoot or a mike depending on the result. If it goes down their ammo knocked it down, end of discussion. If not it is club match give them a reshoot and fix the steel problem and move on.

I am not going to work up a load of ammo, remember to take it to the match, run to the truck to get the crap, take 10 minutes to do something I can solve in 15 seconds. Call me crazy but it is not that big of a deal. Sometimes we get too wrapped up in the details. Level 2 matches and above go exactly by the book. Have the ammo. The matches I run and attend we follow the rulebook, but mandate that I need to have some exact chrono ammo on hand for a club match where there is not a chrono then someone else can do the match.

[LPatterson]

This is one time where my OCD kicks in. If a person is going to claim to be a Match Director, then there are rules that must be followed. If they are not following the calibration rule, then what other rule is subject to comprise. Follow the rules or stay home.

[Coach]

This is one time where my OCD kicks in. If a person is going to claim to be a Match Director, then there are rules that must be followed. If they are not following the calibration rule, then what other rule is subject to comprise. Follow the rules or stay home.

So we need to set up a chronograph and do that whole process for a level one match as well. If none of the ammo is checked why check the calibration ammo? If I am going to design, help build, produce the score sheets, manage the match and generally keep everyone else happy in all ways, field phone calls from strangers and newbies at all hours about the club and the sport why is it incumbent on me to produce at my or the club expense a package of special calibration ammo as well? If I don't do that then I am just not pulling my weight? The whole inegrity of the sport and western civilization is in danger because my chrono ammo is winchester white box or whatever the shooter has? Really?

[colt]

If I am going to design, help build, produce the score sheets, manage the match and generally keep everyone else happy in all ways, field phone calls from strangers and newbies at all hours about the club and the sport why is it incumbent on me to produce at my or the club expense a package of special calibration ammo as well? If I don't do that then I am just not pulling my weight? The whole inegrity of the sport and western civilization is in danger because my chrono ammo is winchester white box or whatever the shooter has? Really?

+1

I became MD because no one else wanted too. I am not sure if anyone is stepping up if for MD if I don't bring chrono ammo. I am going to use my reloads in someone else gun,not going there. I won't shoot anyone else's reloads in my guns.

[mhs]

So we need to set up a chronograph and do that whole process for a level one match as well. If none of the ammo is checked why check the calibration ammo?

As far as I could tell from reading Appendix C1 it would be within the rules to chrono your calibration ammo/gun combination once, say at the start of the season, and use them all year.

[Skydiver]

So we need to set up a chronograph and do that whole process for a level one match as well. If none of the ammo is checked why check the calibration ammo?

As far as I could tell from reading Appendix C1 it would be within the rules to chrono your calibration ammo/gun combination once, say at the start of the season, and use them all year.

That's my reading of C1.2 as well since all it says is:

2. Prior to commencement of a match, the calibration ammunition must be chronographed using the procedure specified in Appendix C2. The calibration ammunition, when tested through each designated handgun, should achieve a power factor between 115.0 and 125.0 to qualify. 9x19mm is the recommended caliber.

For a truly legal Level I match, the stumbling block is going to be C1.4 and C1.5. Unless there a huge cache of calibration ammo, and the Range Master (or his calibration officers) has a lot of time between setup and match start, this maybe a little hard to do:

4.The Range Master must arrange for each popper to be calibrated prior to commencement of a match, and whenever required during a match.

5. For initial calibration, each popper must be set to fall when hit within the calibration zone with a single shot fired from a designated handgun using the calibration ammunition. The shot must be fired from the shooting location in the course of fire furthest from the popper being calibrated. Calibration zones are indicated in the diagrams in Appendix B4.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Skydiver

[Dan Hefta]

If I am going to design, help build, produce the score sheets, manage the match and generally keep everyone else happy in all ways, field phone calls from strangers and newbies at all hours about the club and the sport why is it incumbent on me to produce at my or the club expense a package of special calibration ammo as well? If I don't do that then I am just not pulling my weight? The whole inegrity of the sport and western civilization is in danger because my chrono ammo is winchester white box or whatever the shooter has? Really?

+1

I became MD because no one else wanted too. I am not sure if anyone is stepping up if for MD if I don't bring chrono ammo. I am going to use my reloads in someone else gun,not going there. I won't shoot anyone else's reloads in my guns.

I agree with the above statements. It's hard enough doing all that I already do, the last thing that I am going to worry about is calibration ammo. I did it for a few matches when I first took over running my club and quite simply it was a nightmare. I am a shooter and I love shooting just like all of us on this forum. I bust my butt every match I run, I am not going to run around everytime a popper doesn't fall. I am at the match to shoot just like the rest of the guys. I took a job that no one else would do... that's good enough for me to sleep at night.

[JThompson]

Poppers that have been hit/driven down, esp those as activators, should be setup and shot with calibration ammo after the run. The competitor would chose whether he/she wants to accept the current run (like interference) or have a calibration shot taken. IF the popper fails during calibration then she/he must reshoot. Also, if there is a popper challenge on a hit, where the popper didn't fall, the calibration shot should be taken and If it falls then it should be reset and shot again because we don't know what state it was in after being hit 1-3-x times.

There's to much room for inequity with these targets... I think it's time we did something about it.

That's all I have to say about it....

JT

Edited March 18, 2011 by JThompson

[mhs]

Poppers that have been hit/driven down, esp those as activators, should be setup and shot with calibration ammo after the run. The competitor would chose whether he/she wants to accept the current run (like interference) or have a calibration shot taken. IF the popper fails during calibration then she/he must reshoot. Also, if there is a popper challenge on a hit, where the popper didn't fall, the calibration shot should be taken and If it falls then it should be reset and shot again because we don't know what state it was in after being hit 1-3-x times.

There's to much room for inequity with these targets... I think it's time we did something about it.

That's all I have to say about it....

JT

So if a competitor drives down an activator and is happy with the stage, you think that it should be calibrated, and if it fails the competitor should be forced to reshoot?

Do you mean it should be calibrated regardless, but the competitor decides beforehand if they want to keep their first run?

Edited March 18, 2011 by mhs

[Matt P.]

I can understand the point of view that a load for calibration and a chrono gun is alot of work for a match director. I have run a club before and never found it difficult to comply with that rule BUT, with that being said, I think it should be looked at as follows:

If you have your chrono loads and gun, then call it a uspsa match.

If you dont want to follow the rules, then have the match , just dont call it a sanctioned USPSA match.

I dont care for selective rule picking, club rules, or general assumed notes. It really is not fair for the person showing up giving money to club expecting to compete in a USPSA match.

I am not saying you need to have the correct ammo and procedures for a calibration challenge, I am just saying that if you dont, no big deal, just dont call it a USPSA match.

If it is a USPSA match, then dont you think an Arbitration committee is more of a hassle then making loads for the chrono?

Edited March 18, 2011 by Matt P.

[Singlestack]

Calibration ammo at a local match?

I have been shooting this sport for over 11 years and I have never seen calibration ammo at a local match. I have been a match director for local matches as well and I use my calibration crescent wrench to calibrate poppers. Never had a complaint.

[sperman]

John,

How do you deal with a popper that doesn't go down? Who's gun do you use?

[Coach]

I can understand the point of view that a load for calibration and a chrono gun is alot of work for a match director. I have run a club before and never found it difficult to comply with that rule BUT, with that being said, I think it should be looked at as follows:

If you have your chrono loads and gun, then call it a uspsa match.

If you dont want to follow the rules, then have the match , just dont call it a sanctioned USPSA match.

I dont care for selective rule picking, club rules, or general assumed notes. It really is not fair for the person showing up giving money to club expecting to compete in a USPSA match.

I am not saying you need to have the correct ammo and procedures for a calibration challenge, I am just saying that if you dont, no big deal, just dont call it a USPSA match.

If it is a USPSA match, then dont you think an Arbitration committee is more of a hassle then making loads for the chrono?

'If someone requests arbitration at a club match something is wrong. It would be less time and no more of a hassle. Than me loading up the ammo testing it and having it available and doing the calibrating each time.

How many clubs actually have calibration ammo and gun on hand?

If I don't have to build walls for level one to hide targets why do I have to do calibration ammo?

By the way I don't do box to box for club matches and build the walls to make the courses legal each time.

[Matt P.]

I am sure this will take me off topic to a degree however, if the calibration rule is relaxed, then what next? The way we score targets? the 180? the reload?

too relaxed of an environment is a significant safety concern. i have heard and seen significant rule violations with safety that have adverse negative outcomes.

I think my point about the calibration was more about the attention to the rules. They are there for a reason. They keep our sport organized, consistent, and most important, safer.

[Coach]

I am sure this will take me off topic to a degree however, if the calibration rule is relaxed, then what next? The way we score targets? the 180? the reload?

too relaxed of an environment is a significant safety concern. i have heard and seen significant rule violations with safety that have adverse negative outcomes.

I think my point about the calibration was more about the attention to the rules. They are there for a reason. They keep our sport organized, consistent, and most important, safer.

Slippery slope is always a convient argument, but no one is talking about the erosion of safety rules or anything else. Just about using a handy 9mm to calibrate a popper. BIG difference.

[Skydiver]

Slippery slope is always a convient argument, but no one is talking about the erosion of safety rules or anything else. Just about using a handy 9mm to calibrate a popper. BIG difference.

Hopefully not a handy 9 Major gun.

[Singlestack]

John,

How do you deal with a popper that doesn't go down? Who's gun do you use?

The nearest neener I can put my hands on. I'll look for a person that reloads first but if theres not one around... nearest neener. Most of the time when they don't go down the problem is obvious. The shot is usually real low or the popper has become way too heavy.

Look, unless you make a huge base for a popper, as soon as it hits the ground a few times the calibration is lost anyway. We use tires to soften the blow but the nails still work loose. If I'm resetting I try to check them as I pick them up. If I'm on the timer and I notice they seem to be falling slow I'll check them.

[Nik Habicht]

John,

How do you deal with a popper that doesn't go down? Who's gun do you use?

The nearest neener I can put my hands on. I'll look for a person that reloads first but if theres not one around... nearest neener. Most of the time when they don't go down the problem is obvious. The shot is usually real low or the popper has become way too heavy.

Look, unless you make a huge base for a popper, as soon as it hits the ground a few times the calibration is lost anyway. We use tires to soften the blow but the nails still work loose. If I'm resetting I try to check them as I pick them up. If I'm on the timer and I notice they seem to be falling slow I'll check them.

Best set-up I ever saw put plywood bases under the poppers. A pain to build, but the poppers really didn't dig into the soil or significantly shift their position....

[JThompson]

John,

How do you deal with a popper that doesn't go down? Who's gun do you use?

The nearest neener I can put my hands on. I'll look for a person that reloads first but if theres not one around... nearest neener. Most of the time when they don't go down the problem is obvious. The shot is usually real low or the popper has become way too heavy.

Look, unless you make a huge base for a popper, as soon as it hits the ground a few times the calibration is lost anyway. We use tires to soften the blow but the nails still work loose. If I'm resetting I try to check them as I pick them up. If I'm on the timer and I notice they seem to be falling slow I'll check them.

Best set-up I ever saw put plywood bases under the poppers. A pain to build, but the poppers really didn't dig into the soil or significantly shift their position....

All poppers at A5 were on plywood... There was on sage t some else built and I didn't catch it where they poppers were not on wood. The ground was sandy and they had two reshoots when the staff was shooting. I saw what was going on and we just dropped down a couple of boards and pt the pikes right through the plywood and into the ground. Done deal... All L2 and up should have plywood under the poppers.

JT