wurm Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 I'm an Expert in SSP by classifier and in most local matches I place top 3 in Experts with a fair amount of class wins. Hey, sometimes nobody else shows up I've only shot the classifier a few times but the last time when I got my Expert rank I would've been darned close to Master if I would not have had a few mag malfunctions and didn't drop a bunch of shots low in the -1 area on stage 3. That was a killer for me. I've since corrected the mag problems and have been working on shooting farther out and am hoping to do well at the upcoming Michigan IDPA State match. I'm actually glad I didn't squeak into master as I wasn't quite ready yet and I have had fun this season competing with a few guys in the same skill range as me, though I do plan on making master soon damn it. I figure it'll be good incentive for me to up my skill level so I won't be at the bottom of the masters every week. In matches I try and squad with a bunch of different shooters because I like to meet and shoot with new people and I like to watch those who score better than me. What I've noticed is that for me, it isn't accuracy so much hurting me as I tend not to drop a ton of points and it isn't the speed of my shooting though of course it could always be faster. My draw could use a bit of speedup but where I think I really lose a lot of time is getting into and out of shooting positions. I've filmed myself and some of the master shooters I've squadded with on the same stage and when I compare them side by side it is pretty telling. Well worth it if you ever get the chance. A lot of times for the first part of stage we will be neck and neck but as I finish shooting an array and get ready to move the master shooter is already moving and when I get to the next shooting spot they are already shooting. Watching the video gives me stuff to work on at practice the next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted July 30, 2010 Author Share Posted July 30, 2010 Everyone's got something good in their post, so I'll save the space of quoting them all. It looks like if I apply myself and can consistently get out of my own way and just shoot.. I'll be really close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 I'm not saying cheat...but sometimes you have to take that extra makeup shot on a target just to be sure you (ahem) get all you -0s!!! That is a loser's mentality. A winner will shoot IDPA like every stage is Limted Vickers and aim and do their reloads within the rules. I very much agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 A winner will shoot IDPA like every stage is Limted Vickers and aim and do their reloads within the rules. This. And they will do everything else within the rules. Plan your run, then use your sights. Piece of cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filishooter Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 (edited) I'm not saying cheat...but sometimes you have to take that extra makeup shot on a target just to be sure you (ahem) get all you -0s!!! That is a loser's mentality. A winner will shoot IDPA like every stage is Limted Vickers and aim and do their reloads within the rules. Lol...tell that to Bob Vogel... at 2:58. He ended up take some "makeup shots" on the steel instead to make it look better. He said his whole (super) squad shot it the same way. A bit of a coincidence that they ALL went to slide lock at the same place? The original poster asked what separates a Master from an Expert and "gamesmanship" is one of them! I guess you are saying Vogel, Sevigney, and other Champions all have a losers mentality? If YOU were an SO on this stage running Vogel, would you give him a FTDR for dumping rounds? How would you know if he's dumping rounds or if he called a miss?While you might score a moral victory with yourself by doing what you feel is right in your heart, you're not going to win many matches when all of your competition in MA class is playing up to the limit of the rules. It would be nice if everyone played nice, but its an unfortunate reality and product of the game. Masters have mastered the game. Edited July 30, 2010 by Filishooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 Staying consistent[not changing in behavior, attitudes, or qualities] thru out stages has worked for me. Focusing on what needs to be done by me on every stage..Taking the skills that i have and applying them to every part of the COF..Some skills such as just nicking the non threat just enough to not leave a grease ring on the line Qoute:I'm actually glad I didn't squeak into master as I wasn't quite ready yet and I have had fun this season competing with a few guys in the same skill range as me, though I do plan on making master soon damn it. I figure it'll be good incentive for me to up my skill level so I won't be at the bottom of the masters every week. Being bumped at a match or at the classifier,i think the shooter should go ahead and bite the bullet and shoot at his new classification..I've had several friends that went from SS to EX or in ???? then just dropped back down to another division,at a lower classification because they didnt feel comfortable "having to stepup" and shoot with the regular shooters in that class..I also think a whole lot of shooters just become complacent..I know i have with staying in CDP,sometimes the wife,work,kids,grandkids and life just seems to pop up at the wrong time.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 Being bumped at a match or at the classifier,i think the shooter should go ahead and bite the bullet and shoot at his new classification..I've had several friends that went from SS to EX or in ???? then just dropped back down to another division,at a lower classification because they didnt feel comfortable "having to stepup" and shoot with the regular shooters in that class If they bumped at a match they already beat all of the other "regular shooters", if they are one of the few that grandbag the classifier, well it's no fun shooting against EX shooters if you are only a SS. My goal was to become a 4 gun master, then 5 gun MA so I rotated divisions until I made it, in all of them. I figured that was better than all of the guys that are SSP MA then go shoot CDP SS. I'm not one to add more rules but more than one class disparity in any division seems silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 Lol...tell that to Bob Vogel... at 2:58. He ended up take some "makeup shots" on the steel to make it look better. He said his whole (super) squad shot it the same way. A bit of a coincidence that they ALL went to slide lock at the same place? The original poster asked what separates a Master from an Expert and "gamesmanship" is one of them! I guess you are saying Vogel, Sevigney, and other Champions all have a losers mentality? If YOU were an SO on this stage running Vogel, would you give him a FTDR for dumping rounds? How would you know if he's dumping rounds or if he called a miss?While you might score a moral victory with yourself, you're not going to win many matches when all of your competition is playing up to the limit of the rules. It would be nice if everyone played nice, but its an unfortunate reality of the game. If that is all someone got out of the video that would be one of the things that separates them from a Master class shooter. There were a lot of points in the video that directly answers the OP question. 2 things to note, he didn't even follow the plan he laid out but was able to adapt quickly and the reason he put multiple shots on the steel was to drive it down and not have to wait for it to fall. That can make a huge difference in time. If you are not playing to "limit of the rules" then you are not playing to win. That is fine if you have another reason to shoot IDPA as all people are different but to use your reasons for shooting to pass judgment on others is ridiculous. Just accept that they are playing the game, legally, to win not just shoot and have fun. It would be nice if people didn't complain about getting beat by someone following the rules just because they can't shoot as well but that is the reality of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filishooter Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 (edited) Yes, there are many other really good tips in Vogel's video, I was just pointing out the slidelock reload because I was called out as having a loser's mentality for even suggesting such a thing. Like you said, if you want to win at the game...you have to be willing to play the game up to (but within) the limit of the rules. In that video - reloading from slidelock is and advantage vs a RWR. There are no rules preventing a shooter from taking makeup shots on a Vickers count stage. It doesn't take long for a Gamesman to put 2 and 2 together. I guess some people may say I have a "losers mentality" for using a 5" gun (that does fit in the box) vs my subcompact but I chose my equipment to take full advantage of the limit if the rules. I wish ALL of my competition had a "winner's mentality" and handicapped themselves by doing what they feel is the right thing to do. But for some reason, the guys who always win and beat me are all losers! Edited July 30, 2010 by Duane Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 "losers mentality" I was always told those who say they can and those who say they can't are both right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 While staying within the basic tenants of the sport..... Different strokes for different folks. I have seen shooters that take nothing but head shots. Shooters who do the "peek a boo" at every cover location before firing a shot. Are they wrong - or just have a different goal/perspective about the sport. Shoot for the reasons that fulfill your needs and understand that others may look at your path as "wrong" because you do not shoot for the same reasons they do. IMO all this "moral" and "intent" stuff varies way to much to be pointing a finger at another shooter........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 (edited) I'm not saying cheat...but sometimes you have to take that extra makeup shot on a target just to be sure you (ahem) get all you -0s!!! That is a loser's mentality. A winner will shoot IDPA like every stage is Limted Vickers and aim and do their reloads within the rules. Lol...tell that to Bob Vogel... at 2:58. He ended up take some "makeup shots" on the steel instead to make it look better. He said his whole (super) squad shot it the same way. A bit of a coincidence that they ALL went to slide lock at the same place? The original poster asked what separates a Master from an Expert and "gamesmanship" is one of them! I guess you are saying Vogel, Sevigney, and other Champions all have a losers mentality? If YOU were an SO on this stage running Vogel, would you give him a FTDR for dumping rounds? How would you know if he's dumping rounds or if he called a miss?While you might score a moral victory with yourself, you're not going to win many matches when all of your competition in MA class is playing up to the limit of the rules. It would be nice if everyone played nice, but its an unfortunate reality and product of the game. Um, not meaning to "call you out" again, but round dumping is not permitted in the IDPA rules, and if specifically prohibited. Gamesmanship is not breaking the rules because the can't read your mind and as a top shooter they are not likely to slap you with a penalty without it being really blatant. The rules are very subjective in IDPA so enforcing them can be difficult, but the shooter still knows what they are doing. There is also a difference between winning and being a winner. If you win and break the rules to get the low score, did you really win? I know you can compete and win M class shooting within the rules of IDPA even if your competition doesn't. To claim that your competitors can only beat you by breaking the rules is pretty big claim. Edited July 30, 2010 by Loves2Shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted July 30, 2010 Author Share Posted July 30, 2010 I'd rather not have this turn into a round dumping is bad, immoral, a winners tool, a cheaters tool - thread.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filishooter Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 (edited) People have different moral values. How can you impose yours onto others? If you go to Church on Sundays does that make the people who don't sinners? I didn't claim my competitition can only beat me by cheating...if I want a chance to hang with them, I can't be giving them advantages that I am not going to use myself. (like them doing a slidelock reload vs me doing a RWR). Like I said, its a product of the game, When in Rome... If IDPA wanted to fix it they would just make every COF Limited Vickers...problem solved. If you get a woody beating the "cheaters" playing the moral card more power to you! I have NEVER been given a procedural for round dumping even though I've had to take makeup shots to ensure I got my hits. Does that mean what I'm doing is right? Maybe, maybe not. Can an SO PROVE a crafty shooter is round dumping on a Vickers count course? I think it would be very difficult. Do shooters use this to gain a competitive advantage? Hell yes. In the end, you have to go to bed at night...and I have no trouble sleeping. To this point I think we;ll just have to agree to disagree (but I still don't like being called a loser)! Sorry to the OP....to get back on track >>>> In a match, many Experts "try" but most Masters just "do". Edited July 30, 2010 by Filishooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 LOL.... Did someone not say..."Just Do It!" or maybe it was "Do not think...Do." or........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filishooter Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 LOL.... Did someone not say..."Just Do It!" or maybe it was "Do not think...Do." or........ Yup...I don't think there is really any one thing that will "take you over the top" other than staying on the path of development. Keep dryfiring, keep practicing keep shooting, make shooting more natural...forget about rankings and before you know it you are there. Then the training really begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 This has degenerated into a "round dumping" thread, and, as always happens when that happens, has likewise degenerated into assessment of the posters' relative morals. Closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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