What separates the Masters from the Experts ?

[DWFAN]

What did you improve on to get your Master classification from expert ? What do most experts need to improve upon to get to that next level ?

I read the "Speed or Accuracy" thread.. it was a great one with a lot of good fairly civilized discussion. I think a lot of that can be applied here, but wanted to see if there was something besides "see the sights faster" and so on.

[jmorris]

Going from EX to MA for me in SSP, ESP and CDP meant I had to beat at least 10 others at a sanctioned match. In SSR and ESR you have a better chance getting sunburned at night than bump to master, so I shot the classifier for them.

I think the key is being consistent. Everyone can have one great stage and many can have one bad stage that blows the match. To have all of them consistently “good” will allow you to beat the guy that had a “great” match except for one stage.

[lugnut]

In the classifiers it's anywhere from 1-20 secs depending where you are as an EX.

On a serious note- I believe it is doing everything a little better and more consistently. If you are looking for one place that stands out it's stage 3/long, more difficult shots. Lots of people can shoot fast under 10 yds and get decent hits. Move things out and the gap tends to grow.

In a match I'd say they tend to "know" how to run a stage efficiently and without PEs, NS, FTNs, etc. They do happen of course but not as often.

[DWFAN]

Yes, Im thinking more along the lines of match competition. Im sure there are plenty of "Classifier" Masters out there who get beat by experts in the major matches. (along with people in every other class.)

So shooting cleaner matches is one thing that separates MA from EX. Makes sense.

What else ?

[rvb]

accuracy. end the match fewer points down.

eliminating the need for make-up or "insurance" shots.

learn to call your shots. never leave a -3 w/o making it up unless out of ammo.

Eliminating excess movement.*

*examples: don't duck totally behind cover to reload. if you're covered enough for shooting, you're covered enough for reloading. and know your shooting positions. When you get to a cover position, be ready to shoot and know where the target is (actually 'pie-ing' takes a lot of time).

-rvb

Edited July 29, 2010 by Duane Thomas

[Strick]

Im thinking more along the lines of match competition. So shooting cleaner matches is one thing that separates MA from EX. Makes sense.

What else ?

accuracy. end the match fewer points down.

eliminating the need for make-up or "insurance" shots.

learn to call your shots. never leave a -3 w/o making it up unless out of ammo.

Eliminating excess movement.*

*examples: don't duck totally behind cover to reload. if you're covered enough for shooting, you're covered enough for reloading. and know your shooting positions. When you get to a cover position, be ready to shoot and know where the target is (actually 'pie-ing' takes a lot of time).

-rvb

This is a pretty big part of it.

In IDPA there are only slightly different ways to shoot a stage, if any, so you have to be able to shoot that stage more efficiently, and accurately than the others. Figured out a way to shoot the same stage faster and with a lot fewer points down is what makes a master. Setups (getting in and out of shooting positions), transitions, and other non shooting movements are done more efficiently.

Think about it, most people can pull the trigger as fast as a top Master, many can be as accurate, a lot can reload as fast, some can get from position to position as fast.............put them all together and you get what makes someone a competitive master class shooter.

Not making mental errors like PE's, No Shoots, Failures, and misses is also huge.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Strick

[Filishooter]

Figure out what time you want to make in the Classifier factoring in your down points, break that time down into the 3 stages and break the stages down to get your par times you need to make for each string...then start practicing like hell to work your time down below that par for each and every string.

The more aware of your own shooting the better. What is your draw speed? your splits? your transitions? your reloads? Time between positions, etc. Most Masters know this about themselves. They can look at a stage and tell you in what time they are going to shoot it in, and come really close.

The important thing is to get an idea of what pace you want to shoot at to get your time and your hits. Put the time in before the classifier, don't try to make a time while you are shooting the classifier.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Filishooter

[gb32]

Are we talking about match performance or the actual classifier?

On the classifier I would look at your times for Stage 3, Strings 1 and 2. Lots of time to be had there. I want to be around 10-12 seconds for those 2 strings.

Match performance wise, Masters just do everything a little better. Which adds up. Quick.

[Merlin Orr]

Tightloop posted a nice time per stage breakdown here at one time... Don't have time to search right now... but it is there....somewhere...

[RickB]

They do everything really fast. Seriously, that's the difference. I compare my classifier scores and stage scores to Masters, and the difference is that they're faster. My raw times on the classifier aren't good enough to make Master, even if I didn't drop a point. I watch a Master shoot it, and he drops as many points as I do, he just does it a lot faster. Same with stage scores. I shoot the stage in nine-ten seconds, down one, and the Master shoots it in seven-eight seconds, down one.

[DWFAN]

Tightloop posted a nice time per stage breakdown here at one time... Don't have time to search right now... but it is there....somewhere...

Think this is it..

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1228&st=0&p=58762&fromsearch=1entry58762

[Filishooter]

So shooting cleaner matches is one thing that separates MA from EX. Makes sense.

What else ?

Gamesmanship (wiki definition) - the use of dubious (although not technically illegal) methods to win a game, such as golf or snooker. "Pushing the rules to the limit without getting caught, using whatever dubious methods possible to achieve the desired end."

I'm not saying cheat...but sometimes you have to take that extra makeup shot on a target just to be sure you (ahem) get all you -0s!!!

[Merlin Orr]

Tightloop posted a nice time per stage breakdown here at one time... Don't have time to search right now... but it is there....somewhere...

Think this is it..

http://www.brianenos...h=1entry58762

Thats the one! TL has some pretty good advise IMO...

[Glshooter]

The determination to get better. Making a commitment to learn as much as I could. The self confidence to know I could do it.

[DWFAN]

Tightloop posted a nice time per stage breakdown here at one time... Don't have time to search right now... but it is there....somewhere...

Think this is it..

http://www.brianenos...h=1entry58762

Thats the one! TL has some pretty good advise IMO...

I agree . Searched IDPAforum for posts by him.. they were all super informative and helpful.

[salilus]

You have to look at all of the things that happen in a stage to find where you can make up that time. If you look at a typical IDPA stage, there will be 1 draw, typically 1 reload for SSP\ESP, 5-9 targets and 2-5 shooting positions. Target transitions is a BIG place to make up time. If you can save .3 seconds on every target transition, that could be 2.7 seconds on most 18 round stages. Take that to a 12 stage major match and you are looking at 32.4 seconds saved. And this is just for target transitions. There is even more time to be saved when entering and exiting a shooting position. Most folks will waste 2-3 seconds approaching cover, stopping, finding the first target, looking to see if they are in cover, adjusting, and breaking the first shot. If you can hit your entries and exits efficiently, there is a lot of time to be saved here as well.

For me, when I got bumped to ESP master, I had a good match. I had one or two GOOD stages and alot of average stages. In most games, you begin to increase in skill dramatically, just shortly after you become consistent.

[Duane Thomas]

They do everything really fast. Seriously, that's the difference. I compare my classifier scores and stage scores to Masters, and the difference is that they're faster. My raw times on the classifier aren't good enough to make Master, even if I didn't drop a point. I watch a Master shoot it, and he drops as many points as I do, he just does it a lot faster. Same with stage scores. I shoot the stage in nine-ten seconds, down one, and the Master shoots it in seven-eight seconds, down one.

RickB makes a good point. At the lower skill levels there's a serious either/or decision that shooters have to make when it comes to speed or accuracy. As the skill level increases, the need for the either/or decision also decreases. A lot of it is mental, the willingness to get out of your own way, trust your speed, put the conscious mind on hold, trust the subconscious mind, DON'T try to control the shooting, and just....shoot.

I am firmly convinced that most people whose skill level is toward the high end of a particular rank actually possess the raw skills necessary to shoot at the next classification level up, if they would just get out of their own way mentally.

[Strick]

RickB makes a good point. At the lower skill levels there's a serious either/or decision that shooters have to make when it comes to speed or accuracy. As the skill level increases, the need for the either/or decision also decreases. A lot of it is mental, the willingness to get out of your own way, trust your speed, put the conscious mind on hold, trust the subconscious mind, DON'T try to control the shooting, and just....shoot.

I am firmly convinced that most people whose skill level is toward the high end of a particular rank actually possess the raw skills necessary to shoot at the next classification level up, if they would just get out of their own way mentally.

Great observations.

[jmorris]

Gamesmanship (wiki definition) - the use of dubious (although not technically illegal) methods to win a game, such as golf or snooker. "Pushing the rules to the limit without getting caught, using whatever dubious methods possible to achieve the desired end."

I find that definition telling. Those that accuse someone of “gamesmanship” generally do so because they didn’t think of “that” first or just didn’t know that they could implement said technique in a smooth, controlled manner.

Dubious: wavering or hesitating in opinion; inclined to doubt.

Staying within the rules and doing nothing illegal is only “dubious” to someone that doesn’t know the rules or doubt they could pull “it” off. To other top shooters it is simply known “as a good way to do it.”

Pushing the rules to the limit without getting caught? Is that like a cop “catching” me driving 55 in a 55?

I think it is quite possible that some shooters hold themselves back just to be perceived as more “tactical”/less gamey.

[mike4045]

It was all about shooting more consistent and efficiently for me. I practice the hard to make shots and it makes all the other shots much easier. I have seen more than a few shooters who shoot as fast as I do. They just take longer to get started= wasted time and movement. Get in, get it done and get out.

[Dan Sierpina]

Gamesmanship (wiki definition) - the use of dubious (although not technically illegal) methods to win a game, such as golf or snooker. "Pushing the rules to the limit without getting caught, using whatever dubious methods possible to achieve the desired end."

Sorry, pushing the rules to the limit is NOT cheating! Going BEYOND stated rules is.

Since Wikipedia can be modified by anyone, the above definition was posted by someone that did not want to practice enough, or think well enough.

[Shootingirons45]

I've always found it odd that folks that accuse others of gaming tend to be more worried about MY performance, than their own. Just because a Master does it a particular way does not mean that he/she is cheating or breaking the rules. All it means is that they execute the fundementals better, faster and like Dwayne said they get out of their own way.

[CSEMARTIN]

Consistency.

Accuracy at longer ranges.

[Loves2Shoot]

Do the "IDPA dance" and don't be piddling in and out shooting positions. Get to where you are "supposed" to be, shoot the targets and get out. Use all of the -0, over aiming in IDPA seems to be the norm. Know when to take your down points.

Some people alluding to the only way to win by "gaming" stages is funny, IDPA is a game, duh. Shooting it within the parameters of the stage description, but do it as efficiently as you can. I don't dare do anything "unique" without asking the SO's approval first.

Any shooter who can make Expert, can shoot a Master score if they apply themselves.

[Loves2Shoot]

I'm not saying cheat...but sometimes you have to take that extra makeup shot on a target just to be sure you (ahem) get all you -0s!!!

That is a loser's mentality. A winner will shoot IDPA like every stage is Limted Vickers and aim and do their reloads within the rules.