What's the correct call?

[kevin c]

I respectfully disagree that your definition of a hit isn't one the rules use. Scoring doesn't require full diameter hits, and does not address "weak" partial hits - ya either hit the scoring surface or ya don't. Also, poppers no longer define PF; the chrono station does (I disagree with that, but that's another thread).

Calibrated poppers may not go down on an edge hit with a round of proper PF, but nobody argues that the popper was hit (a complete miss would not result in a challenge). Plates are not calibratable, though, and the rules say they should be set up to fall with any hit on the scoring surface, and that includes by the remaining portion of a bullet that edge hits covering hard cover.

Now, there are a couple variations that I'm not clear on.

The first is paper targets behind steel hard cover. An edge hit on the steel is going to send chunks down range into the paper target. What do you score? The biggest piece, or the highest scoring piece that penetrates the target, even if its a sliver of jacket only? Unlikely too, that there will be even a partial grease ring as that sucker will be tumbling like mad. So, what do you do if there's a scoring challenge - where do you put the overlay? I'm guessing it's actually better to simulate HC over paper targets with more paper, and best if it's directly applied to the scoring target (I just ran a stage where it got tricky because shots went through barricade props and proceeded into and through targets).

Another came up in our just held sectional. One of the Texas Stars we were using has 90 degree angle iron in front of and covering the base attachment for each plate. Occasionally shots would hit one of the angled surfaces, and the radial spatter would proceed downrange and some would hit the plate. The scenarios that were discussed (but which, thankfully, never occurred) were: a) if the shot on the attachment knocked off the plate, is it REF? if the shot didn't knock off the plate, can the shooter claim REF? and c) [somebody raised this earlier in this thread, but I didn't catch the definitive answer], if the shooter hits the plate and it doesn't fall, and then shoots it again and it falls, does he still get a reshoot for REF?

eta:

[see what happens when you type in a post, but get side tracked? - Mac jumps in w/ a definitive answer with rock solid reasoning].

Edited July 27, 2010 by kevin c

[mactiger]

I respectfully disagree that your definition of a hit isn't one the rules use. Scoring doesn't require full diameter hits, and does not address "weak" partial hits - ya either hit the scoring surface or ya don't. Also, poppers no longer define PF; the chrono station does (I disagree with that, but that's another thread).

Calibrated poppers may not go down on an edge hit with a round of proper PF, but nobody argues that the popper was hit (a complete miss would not result in a challenge). Plates are not calibratable, though, and the rules say they should be set up to fall with any hit on the scoring surface, and that includes by the remaining portion of a bullet that edge hits covering hard cover.

Now, there are a couple variations that I'm not clear on.

The first is paper targets behind steel hard cover. An edge hit on the steel is going to send chunks down range into the paper target. What do you score? The biggest piece, or the highest scoring piece that penetrates the target, even if its a sliver of jacket only? Unlikely too, that there will be even a partial grease ring as that sucker will be tumbling like mad. So, what do you do if there's a scoring challenge - where do you put the overlay? I'm guessing it's actually better to simulate HC over paper targets with more paper, and best if it's directly applied to the scoring target (I just ran a stage where it got tricky because shots went through barricade props and proceeded into and through targets).

You are correct about the use of simulated hard cover--it's actually also useful even if the paper is behind steel HC, because it eliminates a lot of fragment issues. As for scoring a target that has a huge ragged hole in it, you use your overlay to look for evidence of a bullet, i.e., a partial diameter or radius. If you can find that, you can score the target, if there is no evidence of a radius, then it's scored a miss. Grease marks, "crowns" (what is a crown, anyway), etc., can be considered evidence, but the definitive way to score it is with an overlay and looking for a partial diameter. The concept and technique is the same as looking for a double, or scoring a very close edge hit on a line or no-shoot.

Another came up in our just held sectional. One of the Texas Stars we were using has 90 degree angle iron in front of and covering the base attachment for each plate. Occasionally shots would hit one of the angled surfaces, and the radial spatter would proceed downrange and some would hit the plate. The scenarios that were discussed (but which, thankfully, never occurred) were: a) if the shot on the attachment knocked off the plate, is it REF? if the shot didn't knock off the plate, can the shooter claim REF? and c) [somebody raised this earlier in this thread, but I didn't catch the definitive answer], if the shooter hits the plate and it doesn't fall, and then shoots it again and it falls, does he still get a reshoot for REF?

If the shot hit the attachment, not the plate, and the plate fell, it's a reshoot for REF. If a piece of the bullet sheared off and hit the plate, but didn't knock it off, reshoot for REF. (Same logic as scoring a hit on hard cover--partial bullet diameter.)

For B, are you saying the bullet hit the plate, but it didn't fall? In that case, reshoot for REF. IF it's just splatter, it doesn't count. It's sometimes hard to tell the difference, and in that case, you make a decision. The safe decision (and best all around), is to require a reshoot, because you can't score the target.

C: reshoot for REF, even if the competitor knocked it off on the second try. If the first bullet hit the plate, and it didn't fall, it's REF, regardless of whether the competitor shoots it again or not. Reshoot--he didn't get the same opportunity at the course as everyone else.

Hope this helps.

Troy

eta:

[see what happens when you type in a post, but get side tracked? - Mac jumps in w/ a definitive answer with rock solid reasoning].

[kevin c]

Thank you, Troy. That does help with most of my questions, though part of what you put out concerns me a little, and raises a couple more questions (sorry).

It seems to me, from what you replied, that any chunk of bullet deflecting off metal hard cover from a partial edge hit that then hits and knocks over a scoring metal plate counts as a hit, but that same chunk of bullet, if it doesn't pass through a paper target leaving a discernable bullet hole "rim" (the technically correct term is something like "arc" or "partial circumference", but I've never seen anybody use anything but "partial diameter/radius"), then it doesn't count as a hit? That doesn't seem consistent to me, that the shot scores in one scenario but not the other.

"If the shot hit the attachment, not the plate, and the plate fell, it's a reshoot for REF. If a piece of the bullet sheared off and hit the plate, but didn't knock it off, reshoot for REF. (Same logic as scoring a hit on hard cover--partial bullet diameter.)" That means, then, for any steel target, the attachments and hard cover need to be painted for each shooter, just as the target itself, and inspected for hits, both full and partial diameter, right?

Another question (and yes, I'll admit up front that such a steel array set up is poor design, but it's happened at many a match I been to): Picture an array of plates on stands, some set behind others, perhaps offset so they do not overlap. If an edge hit on a front plate knocks that one over, and then deflects into and knocks over one of those behind, does the one shot count for both hits? (I'd say yes, if the rear plate had a bullet mark on it, otherwise no, because the deflected bullet/spatter might have dislodged the plate by hitting the stand, and, in the second scenario, REF reshoot).

Edited July 28, 2010 by kevin c

[aztecdriver]

You are not waggling it if you are checking it. Repeatedly.

Nope...just dumb.

Touche!

[mactiger]

Thank you, Troy. That does help with most of my questions, though part of what you put out concerns me a little, and raises a couple more questions (sorry).

It seems to me, from what you replied, that any chunk of bullet deflecting off metal hard cover from a partial edge hit that then hits and knocks over a scoring metal plate counts as a hit, but that same chunk of bullet, if it doesn't pass through a paper target leaving a discernable bullet hole "rim" (the technically correct term is something like "arc" or "partial circumference", but I've never seen anybody use anything but "partial diameter/radius"), then it doesn't count as a hit? That doesn't seem consistent to me, that the shot scores in one scenario but not the other.

"If the shot hit the attachment, not the plate, and the plate fell, it's a reshoot for REF. If a piece of the bullet sheared off and hit the plate, but didn't knock it off, reshoot for REF. (Same logic as scoring a hit on hard cover--partial bullet diameter.)" That means, then, for any steel target, the attachments and hard cover need to be painted for each shooter, just as the target itself, and inspected for hits, both full and partial diameter, right?

Another question (and yes, I'll admit up front that such a steel array set up is poor design, but it's happened at many a match I been to): Picture an array of plates on stands, some set behind others, perhaps offset so they do not overlap. If an edge hit on a front plate knocks that one over, and then deflects into and knocks over one of those behind, does the one shot count for both hits? (I'd say yes, if the rear plate had a bullet mark on it, otherwise no, because the deflected bullet/spatter might have dislodged the plate by hitting the stand, and, in the second scenario, REF reshoot).

It's vitally important to paint steel, especially when it's set up as you describe. Determining hits is going to be an exercise sometimes, but if you can't determine an accurate score, it's a reshoot. There isn't a good way to determine a partial bullet diameter hit on steel, but if your scenario happens and the second plate falls, I'd assume that it was indeed a piece of bullet (at least it had enough energy to knock down the plate), and score it. If it is jacket or spatter, and hits but doesn't knock down the second plate, it's a reshoot for REF. It's always a reshoot if the stand is hit and the plate is affected. You can determine hits on paper with the overlays, but not so much on steel--it seems inconsistent, but it's the only method we have.

You have it right in your second question. Sometimes steel is set like this deliberately, sometimes not. I've seen it done that way in some shotgun stages, allowing a "two-fer", if you were confident enough to go for it. Of course, that's shot, not single bullets, but it's the same concept. One shot, two hits.

Troy

[Field]

Calibrated poppers may not go down on an edge hit with a round of proper PF, but nobody argues that the popper was hit (a complete miss would not result in a challenge). Plates are not calibratable, though, and the rules say they should be set up to fall with any hit on the scoring surface, and that includes by the remaining portion of a bullet that edge hits covering hard cover.

it is the shooter's job to be a good shot and hit the popper near the center so it falls down. the dynamics of popper shooting are evident.

nicking the side of a popper is akin to scoring a Delta on cardboard, they are bad shots.

[mhs]

we don't calibrate plates, therefore any hit on the plate is considered a hit, no matter how small (and yes there is a difference between splatter and a continuing partial bullet diameter).

Troy

If it is jacket or spatter, and hits but doesn't knock down the second plate, it's a reshoot for REF. It's always a reshoot if the stand is hit and the plate is affected. You can determine hits on paper with the overlays, but not so much on steel--it seems inconsistent, but it's the only method we have.

Troy

I think I may have misunderstood your first reply that I've quoted here. Am I correct that you're saying that any hit on a plate that does not knock it down, including spatter, is REF?

Thanks

[mactiger]

No, not splatter. But, it can be hard to tell the difference. Plates can be tricky, and the best practice is to have them free-standing somehow, but that doesn't always happen.

Should have been more clear on that...

Troy

[kevin c]

Calibrated poppers may not go down on an edge hit with a round of proper PF, but nobody argues that the popper was hit (a complete miss would not result in a challenge). Plates are not calibratable, though, and the rules say they should be set up to fall with any hit on the scoring surface, and that includes by the remaining portion of a bullet that edge hits covering hard cover.

it is the shooter's job to be a good shot and hit the popper near the center so it falls down. the dynamics of popper shooting are evident.

nicking the side of a popper is akin to scoring a Delta on cardboard, they are bad shots.

I sort of agree with you (a center punched hit is much less in doubt, and puts more knockdown energy onto the target), but not completely.

You can hit a steel target, but it's gotta fall to score. They're supposed to fall to 125 PF competitor ammo, and about 120 PF calibration ammo, with a hit anywhere in or above the calibration zone. Now, are you telling me that, if a shooter edge hits a popper on the circle or top with 170 PF ammo and it doesn't fall, he should tell the RO that no, he's not going to challenge the calibration and will take a miss (which is -10, much worse that the 2 points of a D) because it was a "bad shot"? What if he was shooting a forty, and more than half the bullet diameter hit the popper - that's as much mass, momentum and knockdown power completely on the scoring surface as the 9mm ammo that is commonly used for calibration. And we all know that sometimes steel targets are not set up properly or can change during use. Calibration challenges are a reasonable, if not perfect, way of maintaining equity.

I'm guessing most will want a calibration.

[Field]

. Now, are you telling me that, if a shooter edge hits a popper on the circle or top with 170 PF ammo and it doesn't fall, he should tell the RO that no, he's not going to challenge the calibration and will take a miss (which is -10, much worse that the 2 points of a D) because it was a "bad shot"?

i wasnt saying to NOT request calibration when the situation presents itself i was more saying that the shooter could better avoid the whole problem in the first place by Making-- Sure the steel falls by shooting it in the best spot to knock it over.

i was at this one match a bit ago where there was an array of 6 larger poppers to shoot over in part of a stage, the guy ahead of me was shooting the same caliber out of a similar handgun, he didnt shoot the stage well because he got hung up on 1 or 2 of these poppers cause they 'just werent falling over.' He was shooting them too low. When i shot the same array each popper fell over with 1 shot each and the stage went smooth. This is just an example worth mentioning.