What's the correct call?

[mhs]

Picture this: An 8" steel plate, with rectangular steel hardcover blocking the stand and the bottom edge of the plate, placed about a foot in front of the plate. The competitor hits the hardcover, not quite full diameter, and a fragment of the bullet hits the plate about an inch from the top, but doesn't have enough momentum to move the plate noticeably. Is it REF? 9.1.6.2 and 9.1.6.4 seem to cover every possibility but this. 4.3.1.6 should apply, but I'm not clear if "hit" includes a small fragment or splatter.

[twodownzero]

REF, reshoot.

Plates cannot be calibrated. If any part of a bullet struck the plate and it didn't fall, it's a reshoot.

[jasmap]

REF, reshoot.

Plates cannot be calibrated. If any part of a bullet struck the plate and it didn't fall, it's a reshoot.

You could be right and I may be missing it but where in the rulebook does it say that? I thought it was a miss.

[Pezco]

reshoot due to range equipment failure

[EatMeerkats]

REF, reshoot.

Plates cannot be calibrated. If any part of a bullet struck the plate and it didn't fall, it's a reshoot.

You could be right and I may be missing it but where in the rulebook does it say that? I thought it was a miss.

I just looked it up to double-check… here it is:

4.3.1.6 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified.

[mhs]

For all you saying "REF", if you have an array of several freshly-painted poppers, and shoot a couple of them and stop, you can frequently find traces of splatter on the remaining ones. Is that REF? Where do you draw the line between splatter and a hit? Is there a line?

[George Jones]

Splatter generally goes out (splatters) perpendicular to the target. Splatter is not consider part of the bullet.

A chunk of bullet which continues downrange after edging a steel target is considered part of the original bullet and does score just like a partial hit on a scoring paper target continues to score downrange.

All the scoring rules use the word "continuing". Splatter does not continue. It is simply the bullet disintegrating.

[Skydiver]

For all you saying "REF", if you have an array of several freshly-painted poppers, and shoot a couple of them and stop, you can frequently find traces of splatter on the remaining ones. Is that REF? Where do you draw the line between splatter and a hit? Is there a line?

No, because, unlike plates, poppers are calibrated.

A good RO will let the shooter continue to shoot and only at the end of the COF, let the shooter know that they left poppers standing and if they would like to challenge the calibration as per Appendix C1, 6.c.

If the shooter shot some of the poppers, saw the traces on the other poppers, and then looked at me fishing for "stop" command due to REF and a reshoot, I'd probably waggle the timer at the shooter. (I've never gotten to do that yet. )

[mhs]

Splatter generally goes out (splatters) perpendicular to the target. Splatter is not consider part of the bullet.

A chunk of bullet which continues downrange after edging a steel target is considered part of the original bullet and does score just like a partial hit on a scoring paper target continues to score downrange.

All the scoring rules use the word "continuing". Splatter does not continue. It is simply the bullet disintegrating.

So in my original case, any fragment, no matter how small, that hits the plate and fails to knock it down is REF?

[George Jones]

Splatter generally goes out (splatters) perpendicular to the target. Splatter is not consider part of the bullet.

A chunk of bullet which continues downrange after edging a steel target is considered part of the original bullet and does score just like a partial hit on a scoring paper target continues to score downrange.

All the scoring rules use the word "continuing". Splatter does not continue. It is simply the bullet disintegrating.

So in my original case, any fragment, no matter how small, that hits the plate and fails to knock it down is REF?

Yes. The fragment "continued" and does score. So, since the plate was hit and did not fall, the correct call is REF.

[XD Niner]

For all you saying "REF", if you have an array of several freshly-painted poppers, and shoot a couple of them and stop, you can frequently find traces of splatter on the remaining ones. Is that REF? Where do you draw the line between splatter and a hit? Is there a line?

No, because, unlike plates, poppers are calibrated.

A good RO will let the shooter continue to shoot and only at the end of the COF, let the shooter know that they left poppers standing and if they would like to challenge the calibration as per Appendix C1, 6.c.

If the shooter shot some of the poppers, saw the traces on the other poppers, and then looked at me fishing for "stop" command due to REF and a reshoot, I'd probably waggle the timer at the shooter. (I've never gotten to do that yet. )

I like the waggling the timer approach if the shooter looks back at me for guidance. It avoids the problem of responding to an unasked question and reminds the competitor to finish the COF before raising these types of issues.

It is definitely a REF as described in the first post. If, and that is a big "if" the RO had been able to see the problem while still safely running the shooter, a STOP command could have been issued. However, it is unlikely an engaged RO would have been able to see a small mark on a plate that was at least 7 meters away while keeping an eye on the shooter's pistol.

[sfchorn]

Your answer lies in your original post: "....The competitor hits the hardcover, not quite full diameter......"

If the hit on the hardcover had been full bullet diameter, splatter would not count. Since the hit on the hardcover was less than full bullet diameter, any remaining bullet diameter that stikes something else counts for score and/or penalty. Since the plate was hit and failed to fall, it's a REM and a reshoot.

This can sometimes be a tough judgement call.

[Flexmoney]

For all you saying "REF", if you have an array of several freshly-painted poppers, and shoot a couple of them and stop, you can frequently find traces of splatter on the remaining ones. Is that REF? Where do you draw the line between splatter and a hit? Is there a line?

A full diameter hit cannot travel on to score on another target. A partial diameter hit can.

[mhs]

So in my original case, any fragment, no matter how small, that hits the plate and fails to knock it down is REF?

Yes. The fragment "continued" and does score. So, since the plate was hit and did not fall, the correct call is REF.

It is definitely a REF as described in the first post. If, and that is a big "if" the RO had been able to see the problem while still safely running the shooter, a STOP command could have been issued. However, it is unlikely an engaged RO would have been able to see a small mark on a plate that was at least 7 meters away while keeping an eye on the shooter's pistol.

I started this because of a couple of things that happened on my stage yesterday. One time I ended up painting the plates, and noticed what was almost certainly a second hit, and there was a corresponding place on the hard cover where the bullet had hit about 75% full, and apparently split.

The second time I saw a hit on the hard cover, and thought I saw the plate rock but not change position. I didn't see a mark, but I was around 30 feet away. The shooter did a second shot very quickly and I wasn't confident enough that I had really seen a hit on the plate to stop him.

The most confusing one was I thought that I saw full-diameter hit on a plate, near the center, with the plate not moving at all. This was with a very fast shooter who had the plate down with a second shot very quickly.

Interestingly, these problems all occurred after spending half of Thursday and all of Friday and Saturday in very hot weather. By Sunday I needed to consciously focus my eyes, so I tended to keep them on the gun. With some of the open guns my vision would blur with the concusion, and not go back in focus for several tenths of a second. The guys running the clipboard were instructed to watch for REFs with the plates, but were in the same shape I was.

[Gary Stevens]

For all you saying "REF", if you have an array of several freshly-painted poppers, and shoot a couple of them and stop, you can frequently find traces of splatter on the remaining ones. Is that REF? Where do you draw the line between splatter and a hit? Is there a line?

No, because, unlike plates, poppers are calibrated.

A good RO will let the shooter continue to shoot and only at the end of the COF, let the shooter know that they left poppers standing and if they would like to challenge the calibration as per Appendix C1, 6.c.

If the shooter shot some of the poppers, saw the traces on the other poppers, and then looked at me fishing for "stop" command due to REF and a reshoot, I'd probably waggle the timer at the shooter. (I've never gotten to do that yet. )

The only communication to a shooter, after the start signal, other than safety warnings (finger-muzzle) is "if you are finished unload and show clear". Other than that you are coaching, with the noted exemption for first time shooters.

[Skydiver]

The only communication to a shooter, after the start signal, other than safety warnings (finger-muzzle) is "if you are finished unload and show clear". Other than that you are coaching, with the noted exemption for first time shooters.

Ah, good point. I guess no timer waggling for me.

[aztecdriver]

You are not waggling it if you are checking it. Repeatedly.

[Flexmoney]

You are not waggling it if you are checking it. Repeatedly.

Nope...just dumb.

[CocoBolo]

Any hit on a plate that does not fall is a prop falure. We had a rather long running discussion on this same topic at the TX State Limited. The argument was if you shoot the plate and knock it down with a second shot you cannot ask for and receive a reshoot. My opinion is that you cannot un-fail a prop no matter how many times you shoot it, as the shooter you continue unless the stop is issued then you hope the RO saw it and ask for the reshoot. I ran a TX star stage at two major matches and we did have a number of reshoots which I called stop, when the failure occurred. I did let a couple shooters finish then offer them a reshoot, which they declined. (if the plate was hit dead center it didn't fall, any hit off center took the plates off).

Edited July 27, 2010 by CocoBolo

[mactiger]

Interestingly, these problems all occurred after spending half of Thursday and all of Friday and Saturday in very hot weather. By Sunday I needed to consciously focus my eyes, so I tended to keep them on the gun. With some of the open guns my vision would blur with the concusion, and not go back in focus for several tenths of a second. The guys running the clipboard were instructed to watch for REFs with the plates, but were in the same shape I was.

The RO with the timer watches the competitor, his gun, his hands, etc. Not the targets. The other Range Officers watch the targets and the competitor.

Troy

[mhs]

Any hit on a plate that does not fall is a prop falure. We had a rather long running discussion on this same topic at the TX State Limited. The argument was if you shoot the plate and knock it down with a second shot you cannot ask for and receive a reshoot. My opinion is that you cannot un-fail a prop no matter how many times you shoot it, as the shooter you continue unless the stop is issued then you hope the RO saw it and ask for the reshoot. I ran a TX star stage at two major matches and we did have a number of reshoots which I called stop, when the failure occurred. I did let a couple shooters finish then offer them a reshoot, which they declined. (if the plate was hit dead center it didn't fall, any hit off center took the plates off).

What was your basis for offering a reshoot? Why wasn't it mandatory?

[CocoBolo]

Any hit on a plate that does not fall is a prop falure. We had a rather long running discussion on this same topic at the TX State Limited. The argument was if you shoot the plate and knock it down with a second shot you cannot ask for and receive a reshoot. My opinion is that you cannot un-fail a prop no matter how many times you shoot it, as the shooter you continue unless the stop is issued then you hope the RO saw it and ask for the reshoot. I ran a TX star stage at two major matches and we did have a number of reshoots which I called stop, when the failure occurred. I did let a couple shooters finish then offer them a reshoot, which they declined. (if the plate was hit dead center it didn't fall, any hit off center took the plates off).

What was your basis for offering a reshoot? Why wasn't it mandatory?

By the rules it should have been mandatory but when a shooter shoots 30 rounds to knock 5 plates down its like punishment, so I gave them the option before announcing the time or scoring the stage. If the shooter had paused or looked up at me then I would have stopped them. Technically it was wrong but the right thing to do at the time, and they were given the option to reshoot the stage. It was a 22 round stage 8 targets, 6 steel (1 popper and the star). The targets had plenty too much hard cover and lots of white no shoots, so it was a match spoiler lots and lots of mikes and no shoots.

[LT45]

It seems like we need to exercise some common sense here....

Lets look at rule 4.3.1.6

Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to re-shoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified.

Lets look at "has been hit"

I would consider a HIT just that.. a hit. Not a splatter or a fragment of a bullet or an edge hit, but a full diameter hit.

We have a minimum power factor... the steel targets we shoot take a good hit to make them overturn or fall.

4.3.1.6 is also in the 2009 Shotgun Rules.

What if the plate is hit with one pellet of bird shot? Is that REF? I don't think so.

One tiny piece of lead hitting the plate doesn't have enough energy and will not knock it down.

That's not a faulty plate it's a weak partial hit.

After the faulty plate has been rectified. Implies that there is something wrong with the plate, and it needs to be fixed so the shooter can have a a fair run.

Using REF for a weak impact incapable of knocking down the plate is a feeble attempt to game or bend the rules to an unfair advantage.

[mactiger]

Any hit on a plate that does not fall is a prop falure. We had a rather long running discussion on this same topic at the TX State Limited. The argument was if you shoot the plate and knock it down with a second shot you cannot ask for and receive a reshoot. My opinion is that you cannot un-fail a prop no matter how many times you shoot it, as the shooter you continue unless the stop is issued then you hope the RO saw it and ask for the reshoot. I ran a TX star stage at two major matches and we did have a number of reshoots which I called stop, when the failure occurred. I did let a couple shooters finish then offer them a reshoot, which they declined. (if the plate was hit dead center it didn't fall, any hit off center took the plates off).

What was your basis for offering a reshoot? Why wasn't it mandatory?

By the rules it should have been mandatory but when a shooter shoots 30 rounds to knock 5 plates down its like punishment, so I gave them the option before announcing the time or scoring the stage. If the shooter had paused or looked up at me then I would have stopped them. Technically it was wrong but the right thing to do at the time, and they were given the option to reshoot the stage. It was a 22 round stage 8 targets, 6 steel (1 popper and the star). The targets had plenty too much hard cover and lots of white no shoots, so it was a match spoiler lots and lots of mikes and no shoots.

This is never the right thing to do. This stage, as you describe, was a difficult shooting challenge, but still a shooting challenge. Plates that are hit but don't fall are by definition REF, and it doesn't matter if it's a full diameter or partial diameter hit. It's REF--call stop and reset the stage, and order the competitor to reshoot. It's not an option.

We have to play this game by the rules, folks. If you don't, it sends the wrong message,and it causes competitors to have problems when they go to a match that does play by the rules.

Troy

[mactiger]

It seems like we need to exercise some common sense here....

Lets look at rule 4.3.1.6

Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to re-shoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified.

Lets look at "has been hit"

I would consider a HIT just that.. a hit. Not a splatter or a fragment of a bullet or an edge hit, but a full diameter hit.

We have a minimum power factor... the steel targets we shoot take a good hit to make them overturn or fall.

4.3.1.6 is also in the 2009 Shotgun Rules.

What if the plate is hit with one pellet of bird shot? Is that REF? I don't think so.

One tiny piece of lead hitting the plate doesn't have enough energy and will not knock it down.

That's not a faulty plate it's a weak partial hit.

After the faulty plate has been rectified. Implies that there is something wrong with the plate, and it needs to be fixed so the shooter can have a a fair run.

Using REF for a weak impact incapable of knocking down the plate is a feeble attempt to game or bend the rules to an unfair advantage.

There is no differentiation in the rules for a partial diameter hit versus a full diameter hit, nor is there any difference between a dead-center hit and an edge hit. For plates, hit is hit. A partial diameter hit on a piece of hard cover that continues on to strike the scoring area of a paper target is counted--why wouldn't you count that as a hit if that partial diameter bullet strikes a plate but doesn't knock it down? The rule is written that way for a reason: we don't calibrate plates, therefore any hit on the plate is considered a hit, no matter how small (and yes there is a difference between splatter and a continuing partial bullet diameter). To do anything less would make calling hits on plates extremely subjective, something we don't want to have in the rulebook. There are enough opportunities for RO's to use their judgment now without allowing them to determine the quality of a "hit".

In this case, the correct call is reshoot due to REF, i.e., the plate failed to fall when hit. Period.

Troy