Comparing shooters across classes

[Nemesis Lead]

Is there a rule of thumb for comparing shooter scores across divisions?

For example, if an L10 shooter shoots 70% of the high score for a match, what might that shooter have expected for a score had he shot a Limited gun? 80%?

Guesses are fine, but I imagine this could be gleaned from looking at results in the Nationals or some other "scientific" method.

NOTE: I KNOW that the correct answer is to NOT compare shooters across classes or to look at their classification within a division to normalize.

This question stems for a discussion I had with some other shooters about scores in field courses. Everyone agreed that Open guns usually score the highest and people were filling in the following chart (and not agreeing much):

OPEN: 100%

Limited: ??

L10: ??

Production: ??

SS: ??

Revolver: ??

Naturally, L10 shooters thought Limited shooters had a huge advantage, Limited shooters felt the advantage over L10 was minimal, Production shooters felt that minor scoring was worth 20%, Open shooters thought they had little advantage, Revolver shooters just felt abused, etc., etc,.

[CocoBolo]

Is there a rule of thumb for comparing shooter scores across divisions?

For example, if an L10 shooter shoots 70% of the high score for a match, what might that shooter have expected for a score had he shot a Limited gun? 80%?

Guesses are fine, but I imagine this could be gleaned from looking at results in the Nationals or some other "scientific" method.

NOTE: I KNOW that the correct answer is to NOT compare shooters across classes or to look at their classification within a division to normalize.

This question stems for a discussion I had with some other shooters about scores in field courses. Everyone agreed that Open guns usually score the highest and people were filling in the following chart (and not agreeing much):

OPEN: 100%

Limited: ??

L10: ??

Production: ??

SS: ??

Revolver: ??

Naturally, L10 shooters thought Limited shooters had a huge advantage, Limited shooters felt the advantage over L10 was minimal, Production shooters felt that minor scoring was worth 20%, Open shooters thought they had little advantage, Revolver shooters just felt abused, etc., etc,.

I think such comparisons are counter productive. We don't go to the local stock car races and try to compare hobby stock cars to Late Model Sportsman. Any one would call that just stupid. So its time for clubs and major matches to stop enabling this kind of counter productive thinking by stopping the combined scores. Just publish scores by division. I would like to think that we are encouraging new shooters to compete in what ever division they have the equipment and desire to compete in.

I also think that major matches should award prizes by division and the division with the most shooters should get the lions share of those prizes, after all the most money for the match came from those shooters.

[Nemesis Lead]

CB--I tend to agree with you. Nonetheless--combined scores are a reality and people make comparisons.

Again--this is in response to a somewhat humorous discussion at one of my Clubs. Folks were filling in the above grid in a "self serving" way. I thought I would see if any "scientific" analysis had ever been done on this with large data sets (for example).

[Corey]

who is to say Open has to be 100%. I could prolly shoot a better score with a limited gun than open right now (ive never shot an Open EVER).

Itd be really hard to get any kind of true accuracy with a system like this.

[CocoBolo]

You could certainly use the Classifier calculator as a source of some meaningless average differances. Based on my own expierence I shoot about 10% better in Open than Limited and drop another 5% by going SS or Production. I'm shooting a Limited 10 Classifier Saturday and I don't think its going to be any handicap at all in a classifier vs Limited. A good A class Revolver shooter can give a decent C class open shooter a good run, and depending on the stages the Revolver might just win. I know this because a good friend is a very good wheel gunner I can't make any mistakes or he will beat me. In a steel match those revolver guys are double tough and they can humble a guy with an open gun.

[bdpaz]

Is there a rule of thumb for comparing shooter scores across divisions?

For example, if an L10 shooter shoots 70% of the high score for a match, what might that shooter have expected for a score had he shot a Limited gun? 80%?

I don't see how this could work as it would vary too much depending on the set up of the stages. If a stage was wide open and the L10 shooter had to do standing reload(s) he would likely do significantly better with a Limited gun. If it was multiple ports with six shots through each then the L10 shooter reloading on the move wouldn't give up as nearly as much to the higher capacity Limited gun.

And although I don't think this is really a question about combined results, I like them. I want to know how I did relative to everyone in the match and I think most people understand the difference between official division results and combined "bragging rights" results.

[G-ManBart]

Is there a rule of thumb for comparing shooter scores across divisions?

None that I've ever heard of. Even if someone came up with one, it would likely be pretty subjective. Not only that, but it's different for different people. For someone with poor eyesight an Open gun might let them shoot far better than they ever could with a Limited gun (for example). I've also known good shooters who try shooting an Open gun, put it down and say "there's just too much going on visually for me"....obviously, it's not going to help them get better results.

I guess if you got a handful of the top guys, who shoot multiple divisions and had them run a variety of stages a couple of times with each kind of gun you could get a pretty good idea, but that's all I can think of. R,

[Flyin40]

Is there a rule of thumb for comparing shooter scores across divisions?

For example, if an L10 shooter shoots 70% of the high score for a match, what might that shooter have expected for a score had he shot a Limited gun? 80%?

Guesses are fine, but I imagine this could be gleaned from looking at results in the Nationals or some other "scientific" method.

NOTE: I KNOW that the correct answer is to NOT compare shooters across classes or to look at their classification within a division to normalize.

This question stems for a discussion I had with some other shooters about scores in field courses. Everyone agreed that Open guns usually score the highest and people were filling in the following chart (and not agreeing much):

OPEN: 100%

Limited: ??

L10: ??

Production: ??

SS: ??

Revolver: ??

Naturally, L10 shooters thought Limited shooters had a huge advantage, Limited shooters felt the advantage over L10 was minimal, Production shooters felt that minor scoring was worth 20%, Open shooters thought they had little advantage, Revolver shooters just felt abused, etc., etc,.

Depends who shows up at the match.........

Flyin

[G-ManBart]

I think such comparisons are counter productive. We don't go to the local stock car races and try to compare hobby stock cars to Late Model Sportsman. Any one would call that just stupid. So its time for clubs and major matches to stop enabling this kind of counter productive thinking by stopping the combined scores. Just publish scores by division. I would like to think that we are encouraging new shooters to compete in what ever division they have the equipment and desire to compete in.

Just what do comparisons do that's counter-productive? They don't really show anything that people can't figure out themselves if they really want to....they look at their hit factor on a stage and then compare it to what someone else did in a different division, and they'll know the numbers. One of the most common questions at a match..."hey, what did you do this in"...people like to compare.

If you look at some auto racing (like LeMans, ALS, etc), they do run multiple divisions on the track at the same time and people most definitely compare the differences between them. They have overall results and within division results. It's something of a badge of honor for teams in the "slower" cars to beat teams with "faster" cars in the overall order.

Just today I was reviewing the results from yesterday's match with my friend who shot his first match. He very clearly understood that his results within the division was all that mattered, but he was very interested in his overall placing as well. It certainly didn't discourage him, and it also showed him some interesting things....like the Production GM who whipped all of us on a fast (mostly steel) 45pt stage.

Honestly, I'm disappointed when they don't post combined results and without them we can sort of do away with HOA and the top-16 at Nationals.

People will take whatever they want from everything. They can use combined results as an educational tool, and maybe a motivating influence, or they can whine that they can't beat so and so because they can't afford an xyz division setup. R,

[Nemesis Lead]

Is there a rule of thumb for comparing shooter scores across divisions?

For example, if an L10 shooter shoots 70% of the high score for a match, what might that shooter have expected for a score had he shot a Limited gun? 80%?

Guesses are fine, but I imagine this could be gleaned from looking at results in the Nationals or some other "scientific" method.

NOTE: I KNOW that the correct answer is to NOT compare shooters across classes or to look at their classification within a division to normalize.

This question stems for a discussion I had with some other shooters about scores in field courses. Everyone agreed that Open guns usually score the highest and people were filling in the following chart (and not agreeing much):

OPEN: 100%

Limited: ??

L10: ??

Production: ??

SS: ??

Revolver: ??

Naturally, L10 shooters thought Limited shooters had a huge advantage, Limited shooters felt the advantage over L10 was minimal, Production shooters felt that minor scoring was worth 20%, Open shooters thought they had little advantage, Revolver shooters just felt abused, etc., etc,.

Depends who shows up at the match.........

Flyin

Is there a rule of thumb for comparing shooter scores across divisions?

For example, if an L10 shooter shoots 70% of the high score for a match, what might that shooter have expected for a score had he shot a Limited gun? 80%?

I don't see how this could work as it would vary too much depending on the set up of the stages. If a stage was wide open and the L10 shooter had to do standing reload(s) he would likely do significantly better with a Limited gun. If it was multiple ports with six shots through each then the L10 shooter reloading on the move wouldn't give up as nearly as much to the higher capacity Limited gun.

And although I don't think this is really a question about combined results, I like them. I want to know how I did relative to everyone in the match and I think most people understand the difference between official division results and combined "bragging rights" results.

You are both absolutely correct, although that is why I was talking about large data sets. Look at enough data and stage differences and individual skill differences wash out.

It is certainly statistically possible to calculate the effects of different equipment across divisions. I am just wondering if it has been done.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Nemesis Lead

[Graham Smith]

Depends who shows up at the match.........

Yup!

I switched from Production to Limited to get the better scoring and get rid of the 10 round limit, but in the matches I go to, the level of competition in Limited is a lot tougher. I find myself trying to shoot faster to catch up and in the end have worse scores than I did in Production.

[High Lord Gomer]

I almost always only look at the combined results. I want to know how I did in comparison to my friends that shoot in other divisions and, in local matches, there often aren't enough shooters in each division to get an accurate comparison of how you did.

[old506]

If you shoot in a division like SS that may not have a lot of shooters in it you need some way to compare yourself even if it is pretty subjective. I shoot SS and since there aren't a lot of shooters in it locally I am always scratching my head wondering what would happen if......

My goal is to be somewhere in the top 20 overall on each stage. If I accomplish this I feel like my stage break down was solid and my reloads must have been pretty solid too. To me, I am shooting against the folks shooting Limited and I love picking off the L10/production folks with two rounds tied behind my back!

[Steven Cline]

I once tried to figure something like this out. The difference between divisions the OP is looking for is what "makes one division faster than another." This boils down a bit to a few things, primarily:

-Less reloads

-Faster splits

Presume a shoot, equally skilled with a Limited and Single Stack gun shoots the same CoF. The difference between the two times will be based on the required reloads he must do when shooting SS not required in Limited. However, if planned proper the reloads aren't actually the time of the reload (1.5 - 2.5 seconds or so).

I timed the difference between two runs- one done with a reload on the move and one without. Without significant draw and split time- The one with the reload cost about 0.7 - 0.9 seconds more. I can't reload in .7 so the reload when done during movement cost less time than a stationary reload, but it still cost time.

I haven't shot Limited or Open, so I can't opine on how a good shooter can exploit the better equipment in minimizing splits.

Instead of saying it's Division, might be more accurate to reduce yer time by "reload" difference and if anyone can figure out how much advantage a comp can give, factor that.

[John Z Sr]

You could certainly use the Classifier calculator as a source of some meaningless average differances. Based on my own expierence I shoot about 10% better in Open than Limited and drop another 5% by going SS or Production. I'm shooting a Limited 10 Classifier Saturday and I don't think its going to be any handicap at all in a classifier vs Limited. A good A class Revolver shooter can give a decent C class open shooter a good run, and depending on the stages the Revolver might just win. I know this because a good friend is a very good wheel gunner I can't make any mistakes or he will beat me. In a steel match those revolver guys are double tough and they can humble a guy with an open gun.

Speaking for myself and the 3 or 4 other revo shooters in the world, thanks for that!!!

[G-ManBart]

Presume a shoot, equally skilled with a Limited and Single Stack gun shoots the same CoF. The difference between the two times will be based on the required reloads he must do when shooting SS not required in Limited. However, if planned proper the reloads aren't actually the time of the reload (1.5 - 2.5 seconds or so).

I timed the difference between two runs- one done with a reload on the move and one without. Without significant draw and split time- The one with the reload cost about 0.7 - 0.9 seconds more. I can't reload in .7 so the reload when done during movement cost less time than a stationary reload, but it still cost time. Absolutely, and most folks don't seem to believe this!

I haven't shot Limited or Open, so I can't opine on how a good shooter can exploit the better equipment in minimizing splits.

Instead of saying it's Division, might be more accurate to reduce yer time by "reload" difference and if anyone can figure out how much advantage a comp can give, factor that.

There is one other factor to include, which isn't so easy to measure. When shooting SS, you're essentially shooting Virginia count on many stages....you simply can't miss and even one makeup shot often has you doing slide lock reloads that are a bit slower. In short, most people shoot a bit more carefully, and hence slower, when they don't have boatloads of mag capacity like Limited and even moreso, Open. Production and L10 also have this to a certain degree, but not quite as much. R,

[bbbean]

It is certainly statistically possible to calculate the effects of different equipment across divisions.

I'm not sure that it is. You'd have to assume the only variable was the equipment - that shooters were shooters were shooters. We know that isn't true. Even if you could do that, you'd have to account for different equipment within the same division. We don't really know what the relative strength of, say, a limited Glock setup vs a limited S*I setup for a generic shooter with no preferences or unique affinity for one or the other. Given the degree to which unique individual aptitudes, preferences, and stage design come into play, I don't think you ever could say that "an open pistol is worth 10% compared to Limited". That may be true for a given shooter, but it would be difficult to generalize to any useful degree.

Even if you lined up the national champs in each division and shot el Presidente over and over, would you really have useful data? How much of the variance in scores would due to the fact that some shooters do very well on shorter courses and others excel at stage analyis and longer shots? The data certainly wouldn't tell you how well you or I would do shooting any given stage with different guns.

I think the best we can do is to acknowledge that in general, open shooters tend to run faster than limited shooters. L-10, SS, and Revolver all have unique challenges built into their division that make side by side comparisons apples and oranges.

That said, I do enjoy seeing the combined results. They're good for bragging rights, but not much else.

[MarkCO]

Is there a rule of thumb for comparing shooter scores across divisions?

For example, if an L10 shooter shoots 70% of the high score for a match, what might that shooter have expected for a score had he shot a Limited gun? 80%?

There are some ways to look at it logically, not sure if that is a rule of thumb. There are a few hundred USPSA members with classifications in 6 divisions. However, only a few of them shoot all 6 divisions on a regualar basis. I went and looked at Brister's match performance (Only GM x 6) and he seemed to focus on one division at a time.

The best method is probably to compare the classifiers. For instance, we recently shot CM 99-52, which is about as close to a field course as you will get with classifiers. Given a HF of 5 results in this:

Production: 72.4%

Limited: 68.8%

Limited 10: 68.8%

Open: 62.5%

Single Stack: 68.8%

Revolver: 76.5%

Except revolver, all solid B class scores. Gives some measure of comparison between divisions. In this case, Lim, Lim10 and SS were all "deemed" equal. However SS and Lim10 would have had to reload.

On a 26 round burner course with a time of 10 seconds in open and no dropped points, you get a a HF of 13. In limited, you will need 1 reload (say 1.3 seconds) dropping the HF by 13%, in Production and L10, 2 reloads dropping you off 26% and in SS, you need 3 reloads dropping you off almost 40%.

So in my 2 examples, the differnces ranged from 14% to 40%. That is a pretty big window. If you are doing it for bragging rights, then okay. This is why we have 6 divisions, it is too hard to equate scores in one to the other except in Lim, Lim10 and SS when capacity is a non-factor.

[old506]

It may not be a science (neither are classifications and classifiers in the first place) but I think that it would be great to do something on a national level, like a handicap. This way you could relate your overall standing with everyone else, even at the club level at individual matches. There has to be enough statistical information at the national level and win ops could produce data at the club level too. This way an open shooter had better shoot his handicap or he will be beat in the overall by a revo.

This would do a few things.

1) It would be more interesting to watch as a spectator and a "Head Over All" leader board could be used during the match. Every-once-in-awhile, an underdog will have everything line up right and shoot the lights out and win and everyone likes that.

2) It eliminates the division barriers as far a prize tables etc.

3) I think that you would see more participation in Revo/SS as shooters, I would guess, would feel more willing to shoot as the prize table could be geared to HOA and not about how many more participate in one division. At the club level it would help with the question of "I wonder what I could have done if I was shooting Limited?"

4)It would put more and different pressure on the shooters, now they would be more concerned about shooting their potential and would be looking at the leader board. I don't like watching golf except for Sunday at the Master's. The leader board is what keeps it interesting as you can watch guys make a run and that is fun.

5) I would have to think about it more, but it might make shooting minor/major less important?

6) I have a feeling that more guys would be beat by the girls though.

There are many negatives.

1)Sandbaggers.

2)It may make minor/major a mute point but I would have to think about this more.

I am not 100% convinced myself, food for thought.

[TreblePlink]

I think combined results, even with "weight factors" for divisions will always be misleading. BECAUSE it depends too much upon the nature of the stage. That is why the classifier calculator reveals different Hit Factor division ratios for each and every classifier. For instance, a stage with a lot of long range or really tight shots will favor Open division, where a low-round count hoser stage will result in closer hit factors through the divisions.

SO, since you cannot "dial in" accurate division adjustment factors for each of the stages in the match, (because without a large statistical population for comparison - none can be derived) you are introducing entirely invented inaccuracies. At best it is an approximate guess. You are sanctioning an inaccurate presentation.

[boz1911]

I guess you could determine the HHF for all classifiers and all divisions then average them to give a rough idea of the difference. That should only take a week or two..... and the results....well, they would be results...

[Matt Griffin]

Check the Nationals and figure out the overalls. You get three divisions at once on the same COF, and you have the best shooters in each of the divisions shooting. That's as close as you can get on a question like this. Classifiers will throw skewed results because of the low round counts, btw, a six round classifier will be very similar for revolver and Open, it sure doesn't represent the difference on a field course.

H.

[Doug S]

When I want to see how I compared to other shooters in different divisions, as we all do, I just compare my Hit Factor with thiers on a given stage. I think that most Overall results are listed by points won and a Limited shooter that stands out in his division could win 100 percent of the points, where a Open shooter could win 75 percent of his stages and not earn the same amount of points but will most likely have a higher hit factor.

Since I just earned my "B" class in Open, I like to compare my HF to the "A" class and highers to see how close I am getting to them. And then I try to figure out how much faster or more accurate they are. I have found it is both but the top shooters are still hitting more A's than I am, times aren't that much slower.

Another thing you could try is to take your division time and score for a stage and put it into the classifier calculator for a different division. ie take L10 scores and run it in an Open calc. Then you can compare the percentages and find out where you would have placed had you been shooting an Open gun. Just a thought.

Doug