100 yds = accuracy | 300 yds = no accuracy

[walsh]

I've been working on loads with six powders I have here and while H322 seems to be the favorite so far, H355 isn't bad either.

Sunday I was shooting at a 100 yd target and went through 20 rds with the following:

BM Gas Piston 16"

Geisselle 4 1/2 match trigger

H335

22.5 gr

55gr Hornady HPBT w/ cannelure

Federal SRP

no crimp

2.220 OAL (+/- .002 as the Redding match dies are great)

All hand loaded ammo in LC once fired brass.

90 degrees

little wind if any

Altitude 450 feet +/- 50 feet

Looking at the Hornady #7 reloading book the closest read is 22.4 with a COL of 2.20 at 3,000 fps. max stated is 23.2 gr at 3100 fps

A father had his son shooting an rifle air gun at 25 yds a few benches down and he came over and was spotting me. All the rounds were inside 1.5" at 100 yds.

He asked me to shoot at the 300 yd metal gong that's 20" and hangs from a sturdy steel tripod and makes a cool sound but when I went to look for it I found it was down for repair. But we have 10" ones on stakes that I shot at.

I'm using a Nikon 10x BDC reticle and thought I'd be hitting it most times. But it wasn't just that 17/20 missed, more than half missed by a foot as could be seen by the dust in the berm. So I loaded up 10 more and had the same problem with only 1 hitting and a few about 1 foot off. All the misses were not consistently in one spot.

If it were windy I'd say maybe that was it. If I has used 20.8 gr (2800 ft) I'd say that perhaps that was the cause.

So I'm stumped. I've really been working on my benchrest shooting and a solid platform and that 2nd stage of the trigger is 1/2 pound.

For argument's sake let's give me the benefit of the doubt and say it wasn't me. Is it that shooting at 300 yds for consistency requires something like a 69 gr SMK bullet as the 55 gr becomes unstable at 300 yds? Do I need to load at max data velocity for 300 yds?

Thanks in advance,

Walsh

[AlamoShooter]

if the table is very hard the gun may be "bouncing" as the bullet leaves the barrel. = that is one reason we spend so much on good Free float forarms. Like Firebird or JP.

you will have to work you way through it . I have had some crazy setbacks , first check you scope mount.

The only time I shoot groups under 200 yards is if I am mounting a new scope or confirming hold for my Meopta Dot.

I have to work on a rested hold that does not let the magazine knock my shooting off.

[walsh]

if the table is very hard the gun may be "bouncing" as the bullet leaves the barrel. = that is one reason we spend so much on good Free float forarms. Like Firebird or JP.

you will have to work you way through it . I have had some crazy setbacks , first check you scope mount.

The only time I shoot groups under 200 yards is if I am mounting a new scope or confirming hold for my Meopta Dot.

I have to work on a rested hold that does not let the magazine knock my shooting off.

I have a Daniels Defense free float forearm and our club is great with 45 identical 4" concrete slabs all perfectly aligned as large tops supported by concrete block and cement under cover. I use a Caldwell "The Rock" rest that I've worked at with the sand ant having the forearm sit tightly in. And I'm using 20 round mags so hitting the mag isn't a problem. As best I can tell this is a ballistics issue.

[Kevin G.]

I would consider uniforming the primer pockets and deburring flash holes for the next trip with the 55 gr bullets. I would also load up some heavier bullets with an appropriate powder and give them a go on the same trip. I shoot Berger 73gr bullets over Varget if I want to shoot longer distances and it works like a charm out of my 16" 1:9 twist bbl.

Hope you figure it out. If you don't at least trying will be fun.

Good luck.

[walsh]

I would consider uniforming the primer pockets and deburring flash holes for the next trip with the 55 gr bullets. I would also load up some heavier bullets with an appropriate powder and give them a go on the same trip. I shoot Berger 73gr bullets over Varget if I want to shoot longer distances and it works like a charm out of my 16" 1:9 twist bbl.

Hope you figure it out. If you don't at least trying will be fun.

Good luck.

I'm going to try H322 that shot really well at 100 yds and try them also at 300 yds. I'll also bring some SMK 69 grains to try at both.

Thanks

[AlamoShooter]

I have not tryed H335 But I have loaded a bunch of Benchmark in 22-250 with a 52 A Max . Benchmark has not shot good in both of my AR guns (223) 1in8 twist

4895 does good in the 223 and BLC2 does good with 55s. But no mater how much I wanted it to work good with 69 75 = it did not work as good as -( Varget) for my 69 load.

The BLC2 meaters real good and the Varget will shave & cut in the powder meater

Benchmark powder at 200 yards was not good in my guns ,

So you may want to try a slower powder.

And pull a few of your loads to see how much crimp you had and if the powder was as you thought.

The 1in8 twist does not like going over 3,100 in my gun with 55 gr the first one I had to keep the bullet slower than 3,000 with light bullets to get a reasonable group.

[Romey]

Very often one can see groups that are tight close up open up mid range and then tighten back in farther out as the bullet goes transonic. Not saying this is the case but is very good chance of it.

[walsh]

I have not tryed H335 But I have loaded a bunch of Benchmark in 22-250 with a 52 A Max . Benchmark has not shot good in both of my AR guns (223) 1in8 twist

4895 does good in the 223 and BLC2 does good with 55s. But no mater how much I wanted it to work good with 69 75 = it did not work as good as -( Varget) for my 69 load.

The BLC2 meaters real good and the Varget will shave & cut in the powder meater

Benchmark powder at 200 yards was not good in my guns ,

So you may want to try a slower powder.

And pull a few of your loads to see how much crimp you had and if the powder was as you thought.

The 1in8 twist does not like going over 3,100 in my gun with 55 gr the first one I had to keep the bullet slower than 3,000 with light bullets to get a reasonable group.

I think Romey has it right. I'm just going to keep meticulous record AND shoot some rounds at 300 yds each tome to see what happens to stability.

Thanks all.

Walsh,

[Graham Smith]

I'm not an expert but... If you have a 16" barrel, then don't expect to get the same fps as you see in the tables. The tables are probably for a bolt action with a 24" barrel and will be much higher. I'm guessing that you are probably closer to 2800 than 3000. If you are zeroed at 100 yds then at 300 yds, you are going to need at least a foot of holdover.

[gerritm]

What twist in your barrel. I have a Daniel Defense 16" barrel and free floating forend with a 1/7 and it likes the heavier bullets, 64gr to 75gr. My old 1/9 barrel seemed to like the lighter 55gr bullets.

[Dan Sierpina]

With H335, you're loading about 3 grains too light. 25.5 grains of H335 gives me 3050 fps out of an 18 1/2" barrel. Bring the load to 25.0 and try it. Also, why such a short OAL on the round? Seat the bullets to 2.250.

I've been using H335 for at least 20 years, it's great for bullets up to 55 grains.

[JimmyZip]

Ever think of trying a bipod? I can shoot well with one as I just seem to weld up on the stock, and while I have shot from various bags and such, prone witha bipod is a really comfortable shooting position that I think is pretty beneficial to relaxation . Also, try putting up a target or two at the intermediate distances so that you can see what the bullets are doing there. The shift through the sound barrier shouldn't produce that much inaccuracy really. Often what that produces is keyholing at an intermediate range rather than 2ft groups. This keyholing usually stops as the bullet continues to lose velocity.

[cletus9mm]

from a ballistics perspective i'm going to assume your rounds are traveling at 2800fps since you're charge is just a tad light as some others here have mentioned.

if you're at a 100 yard zero the bullet is real close to 16 inches lower at 300 yards. i plugged your atmospheric variables in a ballistics calculator using a 55 gr v-max. it's a close enough baseline (for me anyway) at said distance. for the variables you did not specify such as humidity and barometric pressure i just used standard variables of 70 percent humidity and 29.92 of mercury.

if my assumed variables are way off it wouldn't impact these numbers by much at this distance.

assuming there was a 5mph crosswind at exactly 90 degrees it would blow your bullet roughly 6 inches over if you were hitting bullseyes at 100 yards.

you shooting 1.5" groups at 100 so lets call that 1.5moa. at 300 yards it would translate into 4.5 inch groups if all other variables were perfect.

at 300 yards your bullets are certainly not near becoming trans sonic. with the above data they should not see that stage of flight until around 650 yards.

hope this helps. safe and happy shooting!

[walsh]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to address a number of questions in this one message.

1- I did not crimp. To take a bullet out I hammered damn hard multiple times on concrete to get it to come out

2- Barrel = 1/9 for 5.56

3- Powder dropped by RCBS Precision dropper and checked every 5 rds

4- Hold over not the issue as rounds were not stable at 300 yds

5- Bipod - I'm using a Caldwell rest with sand and a rear sandbag. A bipod isn't going to make me more stable

6- Can't line up targets at 100,200,300 yds in-line. Would have to make other shooters wait and I'm doing PT for my right shoulder's rotor cuff. Carrying three target holders would not be a good idea

7. Hornady manual states 2.20 COL

Thanks guys,

Walsh

[lmccrock]

Just wondering - can you put a cardboard target at 300 yds, like an IPSC target? That is more measurable than watching dirt fly behind a plate. Also you can be sure the bullet holes are round. With your twist and guessed velocity they should be stable, but you never know.

Lee

[walsh]

Just wondering - can you put a cardboard target at 300 yds, like an IPSC target? That is more measurable than watching dirt fly behind a plate. Also you can be sure the bullet holes are round. With your twist and guessed velocity they should be stable, but you never know.

Lee

I can...but I can't get to it for 2 weeks, and if I miss that weekend we have a vacation planned so it will be 5-6 weeks. I still have 25 rounds left from the same loading so I can try with those first. I'm also going to try my 6.8spc and see what the results are at 100 yds and 300 yds as I don't think it's my flying bullets all over with the change. Good idea though. Thanks.

Walsh

[Croomrider]

Go to the 69gr bullets. 55's are very poor, even at 200 yards. I shot NRA high power for years and nobody that was serious would shoot 55gr. bullets past 100 yards! 1.5 inch groups are not GOOD for 100 yards either, and it's obviously going further south downrange. Bullets are everything for distance work!

Mike

[walsh]

Go to the 69gr bullets. 55's are very poor, even at 200 yards. I shot NRA high power for years and nobody that was serious would shoot 55gr. bullets past 100 yards! 1.5 inch groups are not GOOD for 100 yards either, and it's obviously going further south downrange. Bullets are everything for distance work!

Mike

1.5" groups not good? You should have seen what was happening before I started reloading just recently!

I went to arrange for LASIK last week as in the two years I waited from the initial exam (I'm 55) the slight cataracts I had are more than he expected. My vision is correctable to only 20/40. So if I can get 10 rounds in 1.5" and just started reloading about six weeks ago, I'm thrilled compared to commercial ammo. LOL

LASIK (and I'll get to posting this elsewhere): I'm seeing a retina doc first as I had a very minor issue last year. But they are suggesting a better operation. I knew nothing about what was done for cataracts but my 3 brothers had theirs removed by age 48. The neuro-ophthalmologist said by 60 I will absolutely only be able to be corrected to 60/20 and possibly that by 58 from what he sees. So he said to get a TORIX implant matched to my cornea now. Plus, it can always be removed. It's a fun operation...go watch....

Edited July 19, 2010 by walsh

[Croomrider]

1.5" groups not good? You should have seen what was happening before I started reloading just recently!

I went to arrange for LASIK last week as in the two years I waited from the initial exam (I'm 55) the slight cataracts I had are more than he expected. My vision is correctable to only 20/40. So if I can get 10 rounds in 1.5" and just started reloading about six weeks ago, I'm thrilled compared to commercial ammo. LOL

Sorry, not trying to bust your chops. Glad you are happy with the 1.5" groups. However, I'll bet you are comparing them to what you were getting with 55gr FMJ type factory ammo. That stuff is absolutely THE worst. Anything you do should be an improvement over that. You said you were using a 10x scope so your corrected vision shouldn't be a problem at all in shooting groups in the 1/2" range with good equipment and quality ammo from a solid bench. All I'm trying to say here is, assume it's the loads or equipment, or your technique, and don't blame your vision when using a scope!

I have a target on the wall behind my reloading bench that I shot in pracice a few years ago. It was shot from the sitting position, 10 shots in 60 seconds at 100 yards with a bolt action rifle and IRON sights. The target scored 100-10x with all shots inside the X-ring which is about 1". I would never have come close to that with a rifle that shot 1.5" groups. The thing that makes the biggest difference in developing accurate loads is the BULLET. This is especially true for longer distances. The ability of a bullet to buck the wind is directly related to it's balistic coefficient. The BC will increase with longer heavier and more pointed and boat-tailed bullets. In the 223, the 69gr bullets work pretty good for out to 300 yards, but nobody would use them for 600 or greater.

All I'm saying is, you can do better, and look to the bullet!

Mike

[gerritm]

I don't reload rifle rounds so I have been messing with some different factory rounds. My DD 1/7, 16" barrel in a DPMS flat top receiver. At the gun show this weekend I saw some 75gr Wolf Gold Match and bought a couple of boxes. I got a chance Sunday to go to the range and check them out. I shoot an Aimpoint Red Dot with a 5x magnifier and not really concerned with grouping, just want to make sure I can hit an 8" plate @ 200yards. I have played with a couple of brands and bullet weights from 55, 64, and 75 grains and have not been too impressed with any of them. All were inconsistent at 200, but good @ 100yds. The red dot with he magnifier is just a large blob and covers the target, no fine or precision targeting here. The Wolf match was amazing. All shots were consistently in the center portion of the 8" plate @ 200 and right on the bullseye @ 100yds. I guess it is lucky to find a good factory load that works. My point is as a newby @ this it takes some experimentation to find something that works.

[Aaron M]

You should bump your bullet weight up. You can def shoot a 55 gr bullet at that distance accurately, but it sounds like something is not working out for you. I would try the 69 gr SMK, they are a 1/2 MOA bullet so if you cant hit it with those it is probably another factor. You also put that you did not put a crimp on your bullets, a slight crimp might not hurt you b/c how hard your bolt in an AR is slamming those bullets into the chamber. You mentioned that you had to hammer them out even without the crimp in there. It sounds like your neck tension is super tight and you might also be shaving copper off bullets. I would say try the 69 SMK's seat them to 2.25 and throw 24.5 grs of Varget in the case, slight crimp on the case. Both the 69's and 55's will stabilize fine in a 1-9" twist.

[Croomrider]

Don't crimp them. The SMK-69's do not have a groove for it and it is not needed for target ammo!

Mike

[Jim Watson]

Use a better bullet. Cannelured FMJ is kind of the bottom of the barrel.

Service rifle match shooters use heavier bullets but benchrest shooters and varmint hunters are still doing fine with 50-55 grain bullets at 300 yards.

[jmorris]

While I agree that there are better bullets for long range target shooting I routinely shoot targets at 300 yards smaller than 10” without problems using bulk 55 gr FMJs. If there is no wind you can even hit targets that size with a .22lr. The drop is about the same as a 308 @ 1000 yards though, 156”.

[roadapple]

This site has a wealth of information. I am learning new things about firearms I've had for years. Thanks!