Advice for a Competition vs. Carry Trigger Job

[flstef]

Is the springer competition trigger job USPSA production division legal?

[kmca]

Per the Production revision rules, June 25, 2009:

Strikers, sears, springs, connectors/

disconnectors, and any other part which is

NOT visible when the gun is in battery is

considered an INTERNAL part and may be

modified or replaced unless otherwise

prohibited in these provisions (see section

22 for specific prohibitions).

Edited July 9, 2010 by kmca

[Loves2Shoot]

Is the springer competition trigger job USPSA production division legal?

Yes.

A 4# trigger is the industry standard floor for carry triggers on single action 1911's historically and that is why we set that as our break point in trigger weight. What you choose to carry is your choice, we just have to make a label for business/service purposes. We do add a little more pre-travel on the carry jobs.

I can pretty much guarantee you that under stress a 4,5,6# trigger won't prevent an AD if you have your finger on the damn trigger when you shouldn't and to hear people say a reasonable light trigger (3# range) is more dangerous than a 4.5# trigger does not compute if the work was done properly.

Deciding to carry has risks and rewards and should never be taken lightly IMO. If you aren't up to the task, then don't do it. If you think you are up to it and can't handle a gun with sufficient skill to handle a gun without it going off ONLY when you want to, please society a favor and get proper training until you are "skilled enough to carry a Glock .40." (YouTube DEA agent if you don't get it)

[bdpaz]

I can pretty much guarantee you that under stress a 4,5,6# trigger won't prevent an AD if you have your finger on the damn trigger when you shouldn't and to hear people say a reasonable light trigger (3# range) is more dangerous than a 4.5# trigger does not compute if the work was done properly.

But you may not want to fire the instant you have your finger on the trigger. If you plan to take up the pre travel first, under stress you may blow right on past it and fire the shot before you intended. You may be moving or fighting as you shoot and a heavier but clean breaking trigger provides a small but real safety margin so that you won't fire before you plan to. That is why I prefer a heavier trigger on a carry gun, not as a way to prevent an AD if I have my finger on the trigger when I shouldn't.

[Loves2Shoot]

If you plan to take up the pre travel first, under stress you may blow right on past it and fire the shot before you intended.

I think that would be a VERY bad thing to "plan" to do for the exact reason you stated. I also think having your finger on the trigger and not being prepared for the gun to go off at any instant is dangerous.

I never plan to put my finger on the trigger until it is safe for it to go bang. Dump pure adrenaline in your veins and 1-2 is nothing, but to each his own. I know if my finger is on the trigger is can go off and if it isn't it won't.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Loves2Shoot

[Loves2Shoot]

A caveat before the thread gets locked down. I could call less if you like a heavy or light trigger, the only thing that makes a gun safe (a proper gun and ammo) or unsafe is the person holding it. It scares me to hear people honestly think that a pound or two on the trigger can make the gun safer, as I've seen way to many AD's with overly heavy trigger to believe this theory. The user is the safety on a gun, not the lever and widgets manufacturers put on them.

[K37]

Yes.

A 4# trigger is the industry standard floor for carry triggers on single action 1911's historically and that is why we set that as our break point in trigger weight. What you choose to carry is your choice, we just have to make a label for business/service purposes. We do add a little more pre-travel on the carry jobs.

I can pretty much guarantee you that under stress a 4,5,6# trigger won't prevent an AD if you have your finger on the damn trigger when you shouldn't and to hear people say a reasonable light trigger (3# range) is more dangerous than a 4.5# trigger does not compute if the work was done properly.

Scott, thanks for your reply. You guys have been extremely patient with all my questions concerning your work and I'm certainly going to send my XD to you in the next week or so. Having been in the Infantry early this decade definitely drove home the concept of tactical patience and the principle of not pointing your weapon at anything you didn't intend to destroy; however, I've only had to shoot a military M-4, 92F and a stiff, push-button trigger for an automatic weapon and rockets on an aircraft and really didn't have a healthy respect for a light trigger with little take-up. Your first post really answered the question for me. One needs to get a trigger comparative to their level of experience with respect to what they intend to use the weapon for. I haven't shot competitively and only have experience with heavy, loose triggers in high stress situations, so I'm going to opt for your carry trigger job with a 4-5# trigger and reevaluate more trigger work later. Ultimately, I was missing the fundamental point here: It's the person and his experience behind the weapon that matters in this situation, not the weapon itself.

I apologize for leaning this topic towards the carry debate. Although, based on my past experiences, I believe this is a healthy debate, I didn't intend this particular topic to go this direction. My only hope was to get some opinions from various experiences regarding recommendations on pistol work for dual purposes.

Thank you all, Kenrick

[bdpaz]

If you plan to take up the pre travel first, under stress you may blow right on past it and fire the shot before you intended.

I think that would be a VERY bad thing to "plan" to do for the exact reason you stated. I also think having your finger on the trigger and not being prepared for the gun to go off at any instance is dangerous.

I never plan to put my finger on the trigger until it is safe for it to go bang. Dump pure adrenaline in your veins and 1-2 is nothing, but to each his own. I know if my finger is on the trigger is can go off and if it isn't it won't.

I did not say I expect to have my finger on the trigger before I'm prepared for the gun to go off.

I'm trying to say that I feel there are reasons for a heavier trigger even though they don't prevent ADs.

[Loves2Shoot]

"But you may not want to fire the instant you have your finger on the trigger."

??? Then I don't get what you are saying in your posting, because if my finger is on the trigger I want the gun to go off.

Preference is enough of a reason to want a heavy trigger but I don't understand where the "small but real safety margin" measure is you stated, but there is a lot I don't get.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Loves2Shoot

[Loves2Shoot]

It's the person and his experience behind the weapon that matters in this situation, not the weapon itself.

My thoughts exactly and I think it is a point commonly overlooked.

[bdpaz]

"But you may not want to fire the instant you have your finger on the trigger."

??? Then I don't get what you are saying in your posting, because if my finger is on the trigger I want the gun to go off.

Preference is enough of a reason to want a heavy trigger but I don't understand where the "small but real safety margin" measure is you stated, but there is a lot I don't get.

I don't aim with my finger off the trigger, and then when I decide I'm on target and ready to fire do I move my finger inside the trigger guard and pull the trigger all in one motion. There is a period of time when aiming and having my finger on the trigger coincide. I understand if you don't think a light trigger is a problem during this phase - it is certainly just my opinion and I've probably drifted this thread enough!

[davidwiz]

Please pardon the risk of diverting this thread, but it has been mentioned that carrying a competition tuned gun could get you into legal trouble in an actual SD situation. Presumably you could be portrayed as wielding a super gun, just waiting to ...

Is there any credible source of case law that supports this (never mod a SD gun) thinking?

If this is against forum policy, please PM me.

It is gun writer BS, so they can make themselves look knowledgeable to the Mall Ninja crowd. No one has been able to provide any case law to support this "theory".

[Loves2Shoot]

I see where you are coming from now. I (or someone in my shop) gets asked the "what is the best trigger pull weight for me" question about every week day, so for me this is something I have have put some thought into.

In close fast shooting you are shooting (5-6 shots per second) that amount of time between your aiming and the shot breaking is minuscule.

My grandpa taught me to shoot my first real rifle (.222 Remington, a .5 MOA gun) and it had a 1#ish trigger, I can still hear him say, "Don't touch the trigger until you want to break the shot." Eventually, I could break the trigger after touching the trigger and holding it there and then pulling it ever so slightly, but it did teach me to respect triggers and treat them all like a 1# trigger.

I don't suggest a best trigger weight for anyone, but if you learn to rely on your skills and make good habits, you can grab a gun with a 1# trigger or a 8# trigger and do what you need to do SAFELY. If you rely on trigger weight to prevent "something" bad from happening, you limit your ability to be safe.

[K37]

I don't suggest a best trigger weight for anyone, but if you learn to rely on your skills and make good habits, you can grab a gun with a 1# trigger or a 8# trigger and do what you need to do SAFELY. If you rely on trigger weight to prevent "something" bad from happening, you limit your ability to be safe.

:

You can change the take-up, trigger weight, and reset to put it in the most simple terms, correct? What do you think is the most beneficial to a USPSA (non Open) or IDPA shooter?

[K37]

And you can also change the trigger position on an XDm, right? I have short fingers.

[bdpaz]

I don't suggest a best trigger weight for anyone, but if you learn to rely on your skills and make good habits, you can grab a gun with a 1# trigger or a 8# trigger and do what you need to do SAFELY. If you rely on trigger weight to prevent "something" bad from happening, you limit your ability to be safe.

We probably don't disagree as much as it sounds like here, but let me put my twist on that as my final "parting shot". If you rely on your competition/range skills to manipulate a light trigger you may limit your ability to be safe when being bounced around in fight.

And as this is a competitive shooting forum we likely should have only addressed the pros and cons of using a carry gun for matches rather that straying into giving advice on carry guns. (That would be my extremely subtle way of apologizing to the moderators for drifting outside the scope of the forum)

[G-ManBart]

It is gun writer BS, so they can make themselves look knowledgeable to the Mall Ninja crowd. No one has been able to provide any case law to support this "theory".

I've seen a list of cases, but the only one I recall is probably the earliest, FL versus Alvarez:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19840215&id=qAsTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FwYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7012,7998072

[Resjudicata]

It is gun writer BS, so they can make themselves look knowledgeable to the Mall Ninja crowd. No one has been able to provide any case law to support this "theory".

I've seen a list of cases, but the only one I recall is probably the earliest, FL versus Alvarez:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19840215&id=qAsTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FwYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7012,7998072

The story is on page 16 of that link. At the end of the article it says that prosecutors claim that Alvarez was startled and broke the shot because of the light trigger. This in the face of the officer claiming that he intended to shoot because the bad guy was pulling a gun. The only way to really know what was going on with this case is to read the Florida Supreme Court opinion. NOT a newspaper article. I would bet that the prosecutors either are hard core liberal anti-gun/anti-police OR they had more information than the writer of the article and felt that the criminal charge was actually justified.

In the end it looks like the claim is that the officer did not shoot what/when intended and that goes back to what I said earlier. The gun doesn't really matter. It's what you do with it that matters. The thing to be worried about is whether the shoot was justified and did you hit what you had a justification to hit.

Chris

[TreblePlink]

Seyfreid (any relation to the well known shooter?) was quoted as saying the light trigger increased the guns' "deadliness". Another expert indicated it made the gun shoot faster.

Geez. It wouldn't be hard to find an expert witness (that knows his stuff) to explain that BS aside, the primary effect of a light trigger is to increase accuracy during stressful use by not upsetting the sight picture during the pull - to minimize the chance of hitting innocent bystanders.

But, many cases are lost because of jury ignorance of technical realities, no matter how true they are ...

[davidwiz]

It is gun writer BS, so they can make themselves look knowledgeable to the Mall Ninja crowd. No one has been able to provide any case law to support this "theory".

I've seen a list of cases, but the only one I recall is probably the earliest, FL versus Alvarez:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19840215&id=qAsTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FwYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7012,7998072

Case law is what counts, not what some "expert" said, what appears in a newspaper, or what a prosecutor claims in his/her opening statement.

[spursguy10]

I can def understand the concern of not wanting to have the light trigger in case of legal issues...but I can also see the point of wanting a trigger consistant with how we practice. I would be apart of the party that carries the moded trigger job just to keeep muscle memory

[G-ManBart]

It is gun writer BS, so they can make themselves look knowledgeable to the Mall Ninja crowd. No one has been able to provide any case law to support this "theory".

I've seen a list of cases, but the only one I recall is probably the earliest, FL versus Alvarez:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19840215&id=qAsTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FwYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7012,7998072

Case law is what counts, not what some "expert" said, what appears in a newspaper, or what a prosecutor claims in his/her opening statement.

My point was only that it has and will be an issue brought up in court. There are quite a few other cases, but I didn't keep a list of them. People repeatedly say "there's never been a case of this coming up in court" as a way of rationalizing their choice. It's simply untrue. Whether or not you'll eventually disprove such a claim isn't the issue, it's giving them a softball to swing at that is. I figure giving them something easy to grasp is simply going to make it more expensive to defend against regardless of outcome. Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight since I fall under completely different rules

[Loves2Shoot]

G-man, a few years back we went over this with Ayoob on XDTalk and all of the cases he brought up had to do with accidental shootings and modified triggers in the "hair" trigger range, and they were almost all single action revolvers that were cocked. Mas'conclusion was that reasonable trigger modifications are perfectly acceptable for carry or duty use. Given the number of Duty trigger modifications we do for LEO, I think more than a few Chief's agree with this viewpoint. If anyone wants to look at a lot of cases just go to XDTALK and search for Ayoob's posts.

I have NEVER seen a case presented that show someone is negligent for making reasonable modifications to their carry gun. If that case law does exist, please do share.

[Loves2Shoot]

And you can also change the trigger position on an XDm, right? I have short fingers.

Yes, what is most beneficial depends on what is most important to you. Most people that want to modify the XD/XDm want the shorter pull distances to more closely resemble the 1911 style trigger.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Loves2Shoot

[twodownzero]

G-man, a few years back we went over this with Ayoob on XDTalk and all of the cases he brought up had to do with accidental shootings and modified triggers in the "hair" trigger range, and they were almost all single action revolvers that were cocked. Mas'conclusion was that reasonable trigger modifications are perfectly acceptable for carry or duty use. Given the number of Duty trigger modifications we do for LEO, I think more than a few Chief's agree with this viewpoint. If anyone wants to look at a lot of cases just go to XDTALK and search for Ayoob's posts.

I have NEVER seen a case presented that show someone is negligent for making reasonable modifications to their carry gun. If that case law does exist, please do share.

Yep. Mas Ayoob has created this entire, baseless argument and the horse has been beaten to death and beyond.