Limited or Production

[NewColonial]

I'm getting ready to register for my first USPSA match and I've gone thru the rules and am still confused between Limited and Production. The major difference seems to be the mag capacity. I assume I'd be better off starting out with less mag changes.

Also, I have a new P226 E2. That particular model is not listed in Production gun list on the USPSA list. Does that influence my choice?

I shoot Limited in a local steel match which leads me to think it would be the same division with USPSA.

Advice? Thoughts? Thanks.

[Pro2AInPA]

I'm getting ready to register for my first USPSA match and I've gone thru the rules and am still confused between Limited and Production. The major difference seems to be the mag capacity. I assume I'd be better off starting out with less mag changes.

Also, I have a new P226 E2. That particular model is not listed in Production gun list on the USPSA list. Does that influence my choice?

I shoot Limited in a local steel match which leads me to think it would be the same division with USPSA.

Advice? Thoughts? Thanks.

Production: 10 rounds in the mags at the start signal. No race holsters. Holster and mags behind the hip bone. No single action only guns (the 226 is DA/SA so it's legal). Gun must fit in the "the box", the dimensions are in the rulebook. Your 226 is fine regarding size. Everything is scored minor power factor.

Limited: Magazines must be 140mm in length or shorter. Race holsters allowed. Gear can be forward of the hip bone. Single action only guns allowed. Scored major or minor depending on your ammmo, minimum of .40 bullet diameter for major.

Assuming your 226 is chambered in 9mm, I would shoot production since everything is scored minor. Show up with at least 5 magazines and 4 mag pouches and have fun.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Pro2AInPA

[Vlad]

What he said, plus you should start in the more challenging divisions, where more reloads and better hits are required (ie production). Getting those skills now will help you later.

[-JQ-]

What caliber? If 9mm then shoot production with its 10 mag limit, 40 then shoot limited.

I'm not sure what the E2 deSIGnation stands for but "the list" is pretty specific.

Since this is your first USPSA match, you'll be shooting to learn what fits you...you can run the 9mm in Limited but would be scored to your disadvantage. (Search power factor) Again since it will be your first match - just go and have a ball!

Also...Some people like lots of bullets

ymmv

[G-ManBart]

Advice? Thoughts? Thanks.

Read:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=78927&view=findpost&p=913533

[G-ManBart]

What he said, plus you should start in the more challenging divisions, where more reloads and better hits are required (ie production). Getting those skills now will help you later.

For the first couple of matches (at least) a newbie doesn't really need any more challenges than necessary.

The theory of needing better hits in Production is slightly flawed. At the 2009 Nationals Max shot 93.3% of the available points 1429 out of 1530 to win Open. Bob Vogel shot 92.2% of the available points, 1411 out of 1530 to win Production. Those numbers are pretty typical. Yes, a B, C or D is one point less shooting Minor, but you still have to get in the 95%(ish) range to win regardless of what division you're shooting...that means just a few less B,C and D hits, not a wholesale change.

Edit to add: The 2008 numbers were similar. 95.5% of the points won Open and 94.1% of the points won Production.

Edited June 26, 2010 by G-ManBart

[NewColonial]

Wow, I was pretty much decided on Limited, not after all this I may be reconsidering. :-)

hk_mtbr, the E2 is the new ("enhanced ergonomics") model Sig came out with this year. Slimmer grip, SRT are the main changes. IPSC lists it as an approved Production pistol, but I don't see it on the USPSA site.

[Vlad]

My point was that Production penalizes you more for screwing up and you learn to make sure you get your hits. I find that most new shooters like the challenge.

[NewColonial]

Well, thought we had that settled. I found out from USPSA hgtrs that the P226 E2 is not approved for Production. If SIG replies re: production numbers that may change, but meanwhile, it's no go for Production. After several emails exchanged with the patient person at USPSA it was recommended I shoot Limited 10. Any things I should be aware of?

I mean this in a loving way, but this sure is complicated!

[Pezco]

Since you can't shoot Production, L10 is a good division for you. You would have several things going against you in Limited; mag capacity, minor vs. major etc.

Just go out and have fun, the rest will come with time!

[sfinney]

Well, being your first match and all, it probably won't really matter much which Division you pick. Just have FUN! Just load those mags to capacity and shoot Limited, (or Lim 10 if you feel the need...)

Depending on the match, a lot of local matches won't care about your gun being on the list or not specifically, and may enter you in Production anyway, if you ask nicely. Or they may be a stickler and make you shoot Lim/Lim10......

Either way just show up with 4 or 5 mags, a good solid belt or paddle holster (read not flimsy IWB, or a nylon fabric model), and plenty of ammo. Have Fun!

[Corey]

as posted, you would be a bit of a disadvantage in Limited with your sig setup. L-10 will narrow some of those disadvantages by taking the the extra mag capacity away from your competitors. depending on area, some divisions have a better following than others. you may not have much competition in your specific division. who doesnt love to win their divsion (i dont care if im the only one shooting it that day, haha)

[hockeyfighter25]

What he said, plus you should start in the more challenging divisions, where more reloads and better hits are required (ie production). Getting those skills now will help you later.

For the first couple of matches (at least) a newbie doesn't really need any more challenges than necessary.

The theory of needing better hits in Production is slightly flawed. At the 2009 Nationals Max shot 93.3% of the available points 1429 out of 1530 to win Open. Bob Vogel shot 92.2% of the available points, 1411 out of 1530 to win Production. Those numbers are pretty typical. Yes, a B, C or D is one point less shooting Minor, but you still have to get in the 95%(ish) range to win regardless of what division you're shooting...that means just a few less B,C and D hits, not a wholesale change.

Edit to add: The 2008 numbers were similar. 95.5% of the points won Open and 94.1% of the points won Production.

I have to slightly disagree, below are the number of A, B, C, D, M for production (Bob V.) and open (Max) for the 2009 Nats. Bob shot ~20% more alphas than Max.

A's Bob - 267 => Max - 225

B's Bob - 5 => Max - 4

C's Bob - 32 => Max - 69

D's Bob - 2 => Max - 6

M's Bob - 0 => Max - 2

[G-ManBart]

I have to slightly disagree, below are the number of A, B, C, D, M for production (Bob V.) and open (Max) for the 2009 Nats. Bob shot ~20% more alphas than Max.

A's Bob - 267 => Max - 225

B's Bob - 5 => Max - 4

C's Bob - 32 => Max - 69

D's Bob - 2 => Max - 6

M's Bob - 0 => Max - 2

I don't want to get yelled at for thread drift, so this will be my last comment. Open compared with Production probably isn't the greatest example. Take the 2008 Nationals and compare TT winning Limited to Bob V. winning Production (same match) and TT only dropped ten points more than Bob. That just isn't a huge difference to me...that's why I said "slightly flawed". R,

[Corey]

It would seem that aroun ~95% of points is needed to do quite well. but with productino u get less points for bad hits, therefore you DO need better hits in Production to get the proper number of points. I shoot major PF in SS and my buddy shoots in Prod. i can hit 2 Cs for every one of his and we still have the same point total. way more room for point wiggle if you can shoot Major.

[98sr20ve]

It doesn't matter what division you shoot in the first couple matchs. Shoot in Limited, L-10. No one at local match will even notice or care that your new Sig has a thinner grip (as far as production is concerned). I am not saying you should cheat so maybe you should just shoot L-10 or Limited. Either way it's just not that important what class you shoot in at the beginning. If it was me I would probably shoot Limited. As a long term choice I would hope that gun gets approved in production. Thats the best fit for that gun if you have a 9mm.

[OpenDot]

I wanted to shoot production but after thinking about it and what's been done to my gun... no choice but to go limited.

[G-ManBart]

It would seem that aroun ~95% of points is needed to do quite well. but with productino u get less points for bad hits, therefore you DO need better hits in Production to get the proper number of points. I shoot major PF in SS and my buddy shoots in Prod. i can hit 2 Cs for every one of his and we still have the same point total. way more room for point wiggle if you can shoot Major.

But the shooters winning Production (on the highest levels) are typically shooting lower percentages, which evens things out in many cases (why I pointed out the % difference above).

2007 Limited/Prod Nationals.

Dave S shot 91.9% of the points (dropped 144) to win Production. That was 59 B/C, 7 Deltas, 1 Mike.

Robbie shot 95.7% of the points (dropped 76) to win Limited. That was 67 B/C, 3 Deltas, no Mikes.

In terms of pure hits, those are pretty much a wash.

The point being, you need to have nearly equal hits in any division if you want to win at a high level I don't think we want a newbie to read this and be overly worried that they have to shoot Production/Minor "pefectly" to do well, or that they can be a little sloppier shooting Major. R,

[-JQ-]

If this IS your first match and it is a local match I can't see anyone asking or caring...just to be fair if you "win" you can self DQ

Go. Tell them you are new. Have fun.

If you shoot production for the first couple of "practice/learning matches" then you will at least have a relative measure of things. Maybe it is approved, maybe you get sucked in like the rest of us and you'll buy more/justify more Be careful.

Go. Shoot what you brung and have a great time.

Just my two cents...ymmv

[NewColonial]

Ha, yea probably should have kept my mouth shut, but doing so would go against my grain. Going to shoot everything per the rules

Appreciate all the advice, and, I am going to go and just have fun. I bought this gun because it feels good in my hands and it's fun to shoot, competition wasn't even on my mind. If the match folks are as nice as the folks here, I'm going to have a blast!

Edited July 2, 2010 by NewColonial

[Jaxshooter]

It does not matter if it is a local match or the Nationals, if the gun is not approved for Production shoot Limited 10. The rules are the same for both matches.

[-JQ-]

most of us on the board are pretty-ier online...than in person

[98sr20ve]

I wanted to shoot production but after thinking about it and what's been done to my gun... no choice but to go limited.

What have you done to the gun?

[NewColonial]

I figured I'd fill you in since everyone was so helpful. I shot my first USPSA match this morning. It was a classifier with 4 classifier stages, and 30 and a 32 round field course, six stages in all. There were only five Limited 10 shooters, and I placed 2nd. My match % was 51.34%.

110 shots total

A: 67

B: 2

C: 29

D: 7

M: 5

I still have a long way to go, but I am very happy with my first match.

Thanks again for all the encouragement.

[NewColonial]

For those playing along. I received word from USPSA today that the P226 E2 is now approved for production. Other than equipment position on belt, not sure of other major diffs. Will have to decide between sticking with L-10 or switch to Production. (Waiting with baited breath for the classification system to run next week.)

Looking at the results from the match, I payed a small price shooting minor vs. major.

Edited July 6, 2010 by NewColonial