Tape Flying of target durring COF

[Ty Hamby]

A friend of mine at the last match....

Scenario:

Starting arms length from target 3 shots from retention without moving until 3rd round fired then advance to P2.

I would of written the stage to allow shooter to retreat to cover but it wasn't my stage. Lets ignore that part.

She was shooting a new gun (possibly relevant.)

Beep: First shot blew all the tape off the well used target. She paused waiting for a stop command and when the SO said keep going she did. When the COF was over she asked for a re-shoot as the equipment malfunctioned. The tape is designed to stay on the target was her argument. The SO said this happens all the time and we just give you 0 down. She didn't want a 0 target she wanted a re-shoot. As we all know this does happen and when tape fly's off the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt. Afterward she told me she was worried their was a problem with her equipment (her new gun)and paused in confusion as to what was going on. (Her pause was 3.5 seconds). Once she realized that there was no problem with the gun and that the problem was the range equipment malfunction (tape) She really wanted to shoot again as she left 3.5 seconds on the clock. MD backed up the SO decision.

Question 1) Is tape considered range equipment that is required to function as designed for the entire COF?

Question 2) Has headquarters ever addressed this?

Edited June 10, 2010 by HK45 Lefty

[cslafrain]

I have seen it happen a time or to both in local and larger matches. It has always been that the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt, but I have never seen a re-shoot due to this. I stay up on mist of the forums and I don't recall HQ addressing this item specifically. As an SO, it is my responsibility to ensure the integrity of the targets and that they were in condition for the shooter. If you have targets that are prone to this due to point blank conditions then change the target more frequently. People come to shoot targets - not tape/pasters.

[GForceLizard]

As a shooter you should never stop shooting the COF unless you are done or the SO says stop. At the end of the run you can ask for a reshoot. What happened here is a perfect example. The shooter pauses and the reshoot is denied. You cannot know how the SO & MD will rule.

[Fireant]

Most clubs that I have shot at cut the down 0 section out of the target for this type of shooting. That avoids the tape coming off and they figure you are not going to miss at point blank range.

[steel1212]

As a shooter you don't stop until STOPPED! If a piece of steel is not reset you don't stop until STOPPED. If target isn't pasted while your shooting you don't stop until STOPPED. It sucks because your mind is geared to see a certain thing and when its not there you do pause. As you get more experienced the pause gets less and less but it is there.

[jmorris]

As a shooter you should never stop shooting the COF unless you are done or the SO says stop.

As a shooter you should do the above or stop anytime there might be a safety issue. For example, if you have a squib and you know it but the RO doesn't say stop, stop yourself.

[Steve J]

Yes, do stop yourself if an unsafe condition exists - squib, person or pet down range, targets set too high where the required head shot will go over the berm, etc.

[BillD]

I would have just put on a new target and given her a reshoot.

No big deal and I really don't understand why the RO wouldn't do that.

[steel1212]

I would have just put on a new target and given her a reshoot.

No big deal and I really don't understand why the RO wouldn't do that.

The SO should have done that BEFORE she shot it if the target was that shot up. After she is shooting its benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

Also, if you think you have a squib or something else is unsafe please stop yourself. My post above was for things through out the COF that just didn't get reset. Anything unsafe, if the RO/SO saw it or not, I would like to think you would stop for it.

[Sullie]

The problem with tape flying off is because of the close distance of the shooting. Replacing the target for every shooter is not realistic.

If the shooter didn't want to accept her run with zero down on the first target then I would have just given her a reshoot.

[Jane]

Question 2) Has headquarters ever addressed this?

Yes, although not to the question of a reshoot in such a situation.

(page 74 of current rule book):

Extensively pasted targets should be replaced. At a major match,

targets should be replaced often to prevent any scoring

discrepancies. IDPA policy at sanctioned matches is that the target

should be replaced every fifty (50) hits maximum.

[..snip..]

Change targets regularly so scoring remains

simple.

[Cy Soto]

On page 74 of the IDPA Rulebook it specifies that "Extensively pasted targets should be replaced". And it goes on to say that "IDPA policy at sanctioned matches is that the target should be replaced every fifty (50) hits maximum".

IMO the shooter could have asked for a new target prior to beginning her run but I really don't see a recourse for a reshoot after the commencement of the COF; especially if she decided to stop herself. I admit that it never hurts to ask but this doesn't always guarantee that you will be granted one.

[GForceLizard]

Most clubs that I have shot at cut the down 0 section out of the target for this type of shooting. That avoids the tape coming off and they figure you are not going to miss at point blank range.

This is what we've done at our club. The SO should be able to tell if you miss the target entirely when at arms length.

[Strick]

It seems the issue in this case was not that the tape blew off the target but that the shooter wanted a re-shoot due to her own stoppage. Did the loss of tape cause a situation where she was interfered with or in a manner that inhibited her from completing the stage? NO. Stopping because you are anticipating the SO to stop you but not getting it should not get you a re-shoot.

As mentioned the shooter would actually benefit from the tape blowing off since it would likely zero those targets.

[Bill Nesbitt]

We used to tease shooters that if they blew pasters off then the muzzle was too close to the target and they weren't using good retention form.

[Ty Hamby]

As a shooter you don't stop until STOPPED! If a piece of steel is not reset you don't stop until STOPPED. If target isn't pasted while your shooting you don't stop until STOPPED. It sucks because your mind is geared to see a certain thing and when its not there you do pause. As you get more experienced the pause gets less and less but it is there.

I respect your opinion however I don’t agree entirely. She stopped due to a possible safety issue with her gun. She was unable to comprehend what had just happened. She was dumbfounded when the SO told here to keep going with a broken gun. As it turned out the gun was functioning correctly and the stage was falling apart during the COF. This all took place in 3.5 seconds.

That day is in the past but as an SO myself I’m looking for some direction on how to handle this in the future.

I myself faced a similar situation and I’m looking for some direction.

Six months ago I paused during a COF on a record breaking day for me.(it’s not saying much)

As I advanced to P1 and looked through a window gun out milli-seconds before the sear dropped I Stopped. A target was leaning back in a target stand behind cover, as I looked at the front sight it leaned forward and the late in the day shadow zipped across the ground about 6 feet while the target is still behind cover. Thinking someone was still down range I paused. I shouted IS SOMEONE DOWN THERE? The SO peaked his head around the barrier and said no your good keep fighting! I did not get a reshoot. My day was blown after that. I would rather finish last than ever harm someone playing a game. However I wouldn’t of minded a reshoot either.

Yes, do stop yourself if an unsafe condition exists - squib, person or pet down range, targets set too high where the required head shot will go over the berm, etc.

I concur with this mentality also.^^^

It seems the issue in this case was not that the tape blew off the target but that the shooter wanted a re-shoot due to her own stoppage. Did the loss of tape cause a situation where she was interfered with or in a manner that inhibited her from completing the stage? NO. Stopping because you are anticipating the SO to stop you but not getting it should not get you a re-shoot.

As mentioned the shooter would actually benefit from the tape blowing off since it would likely zero those targets.

Again her stoppage was for everyone’s safety. She has been a member of IDPA for several years I’ve personally watched her shoot 50+ times. She is no slouch and puts my scores to shame every month. As a veteran to the sport as she is she was error-ing on the side of caution. I commend that and would of given her a reshoot myself.

I just wish headquarters would elaborate on this a little more.

[Strick]

Again her stoppage was for everyone’s safety. She has been a member of IDPA for several years I’ve personally watched her shoot 50+ times. She is no slouch and puts my scores to shame every month. As a veteran to the sport as she is she was error-ing on the side of caution. I commend that and would of given her a reshoot myself.

I just wish headquarters would elaborate on this a little more.

If she has that much experience I find it hard to believe that she has never seen tape fly off a target. Seems like that would be a great way to game a stage if they were called that way. Shooter pauses then continues and claims the pause was "safety" related. Just like with a squib, if you stop and are wrong you get no re-shoot, if the SO stops you then squib or not you get one.

As to your experience, in that case as an SO I would probably have given you a re-shoot. If the SO had to check to see if somebody was back there then that there was something wrong to begin with. You had to wait on the SO to do their job to finish the stage.

[steel1212]

As a shooter you don't stop until STOPPED! If a piece of steel is not reset you don't stop until STOPPED. If target isn't pasted while your shooting you don't stop until STOPPED. It sucks because your mind is geared to see a certain thing and when its not there you do pause. As you get more experienced the pause gets less and less but it is there.

I respect your opinion however I don't agree entirely. She stopped due to a possible safety issue with her gun. She was unable to comprehend what had just happened. She was dumbfounded when the SO told here to keep going with a broken gun. As it turned out the gun was functioning correctly and the stage was falling apart during the COF. This all took place in 3.5 seconds.

That day is in the past but as an SO myself I'm looking for some direction on how to handle this in the future.

I myself faced a similar situation and I'm looking for some direction.

Six months ago I paused during a COF on a record breaking day for me.(it's not saying much)

As I advanced to P1 and looked through a window gun out milli-seconds before the sear dropped I Stopped. A target was leaning back in a target stand behind cover, as I looked at the front sight it leaned forward and the late in the day shadow zipped across the ground about 6 feet while the target is still behind cover. Thinking someone was still down range I paused. I shouted IS SOMEONE DOWN THERE? The SO peaked his head around the barrier and said no your good keep fighting! I did not get a reshoot. My day was blown after that. I would rather finish last than ever harm someone playing a game. However I wouldn't of minded a reshoot either.

Right, and if you'll read the next post where I agreed with Steve that if there is a perceived safety issue then stop yourself. Keep in mind though that just because you thought there was somebody down range, or you thought you had a squib, or she thought her gun blew up isn't a reason for a reshoot either. There are rules to cover these things, granted I don't know the IDPA rule book inside and out like others do. I could also be getting by games confused. If she thought she had a safety issue with her gun what would it be? The SO was right there watching, it didn't blow up, he didn't hear a squib, and he didn't see anything to stop her. Now if she really thought her gun was toast why did she continue? I'm not trying to be argumentative here but we have to look at it from all sides. If everybody got a reshoot because they claimed their gun was unsafe when it stopped shooting everybody that had a jam would want a reshoot.

[Duane Thomas]

Whey would headquarters need to elaborate on something that is such a common and well-known situation? A bit of a waste of their time, to be sure.

Sounds to me like the shooter had a mental malfunction and wanted a reshoot because of it. Thumbs down.

[sirveyr]

Sorry, brain farts do not deserve reshoots.

[Cy Soto]

If everybody got a reshoot because they claimed their gun was unsafe when it stopped shooting everybody that had a jam would want a reshoot.

I concur! This would make for a very long day.

[Merlin Orr]

Did anyone shoot the stage before the shooter in question? Did the pasters blow off when the other shooters shot the stage?

And to Cy... Your current avatar sure looks better than the last one you had,,,,,,

[Ty Hamby]

If everybody got a reshoot because they claimed their gun was unsafe when it stopped shooting everybody that had a jam would want a reshoot.

I concur! This would make for a very long day.

There was no brain fart. The "fart" that you refer to was only a pause to examine her surroundings and determine if it was safe to continue or not. Once the SO said go I’m sure it was simultaneously that she discovered that her new gun was operating properly and a prop on the stage had failed.

Thanks for all the input. I now know that its S.O. choice on handling a similar situation as the rule book it too vague on this.

[Duane Thomas]

I now know that its S.O. choice on handling a similar situation as the rule book it too vague on this.

It's not a matter of SO choice because the Rule Book is too vague. Any experienced RO/SO is doing to know how to handle this situation.

Y'know, this reminds me of a conversation I had with IDPA BoD member John Sayle about why the IDPA Rule Book is so thin - though getting progressively bigger. He said, "When we wrote the first Rule Book we just assumed that a lot of things were common sense. I guess not."

[Jane]

He said, "When we wrote the first Rule Book we just assumed that a lot of things were common sense. I guess not."

Everything can be found in that, glasshoppahs.....