Scoring long range rifle steel

[Jason Klein]

I am the local multi-gun go-to guy for running matches and setup. In the past, I have always had complaints that long range rifle steel decides a match (such that no matter how good a person does elsewhere, if they do poorly on the rifle steel, they will lose the match).

So, I am in search of a new way to score steel, encourage people to actually shoot their rifles to 300 yards, and discourage the guy that just "bangs of 4 rounds" (or however many steel there are) and go on.

I really like the SASS idea of a "Spirit of the Game" penalty, but then how do you really decide if they are gaming or just know they have not a prayer to hit the steel and save ammo for later.

I want steel to be as important as other targets, but not overbearing so as to decide a winner based on that one stage, but not so trivial as to just sluff them off.

My ideas so far (all based on a time-plus scoring style):

Fixed time: Allow 20 seconds per steel target for the total time. (4 steel x 20 seconds = 80 second fixed time)

Then, for each steel hit, subtract a set bonus score (say, 5 points). Then, divide the stage time by 2 (or some other multiplier, still playing with that).

Example:

Shooter A hits no steel, score is 80 for the stage, divide by 2 = final stage points = 40

Shooter B hits 2 steel, score is 80 for the stage, minus 10 bonus points= 80-10 = 70 / 2 = final stage points 35

Shooter C (whom everyone hates) hits all steel. 80-20 bonus = 60 / 2 = final stage points of 30

Shooter D blasts off 4 shots in the general direction, score 80 + SOTG penalty 20 = 100 / 2 = 50

Again, just an example. How do you score your steel? Is this reasonable?

Any help is welcome.

Thanks

Edited June 5, 2010 by Jason Klein

[EkuJustice]

I would keep the scoring how ever it has been. If you want to win a match, you need to be able to do all the things in the match. If the person is great at hosers, but cant hit anything at distance they don't win. If someone can hit anything they see but need a sundial timer they don't win. The person who wins and should win is the person that practices everything. That includes the distance for the rifle and loading the shotgun

If they want to win the match and they know the long range rifle is what decides it then that is what they need to practice not the feel good stuff they can do all day long

Edited June 5, 2010 by EkuJustice

[Loves2Shoot]

"Spirit of the Game" penalties should be left to subjective sports IMO...

You will always have complainers, but if the majority of your customers (shooters) have issues with the scoring, it would be wise to listen and seek their input. I've seen many a match ruined by something a stage designer does to just to "challenge" shooters, and just ends up frustrating a large majority of shooters. Maybe 2 plates at 300 yards versus 4 could make it more fun for folks who can't hit 300 yard targets and have more balance.

[Jason Klein]

Thanks Scott. I know I said 300, but I did not mean all at that range. Going to spread them out from 100 (pretty safe distance) out to 300.

It has never been a majority, just the few, but when I only get a handful (15-20 tops), those 3 or 4 complainers seem pretty major.

I know I can not make everyone happy, but I want people to do more than just hose. Anyone can hose a stage if that is how it is set up. I want to move distances out and make you earn your shots. Yes, I will likely have a hoser stage, what is a match without one.

Thanks all. Anyone else?

[Bryan 45]

Horner scoring? 20 second penalty for each miss on a long range target. Keeps things simple. Use a minimum 4 MOA target, make it visible, tell the guys that can't hit it to practice more.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Bryan 45

[Charles Bond]

Horner scoring? 20 second penalty for each miss on a long range target. Keeps things simple. Use a minimum 4 MOA target, make it visible, tell the guys that can't hit it to practice more.

What I have never quite grasped about Horner Scoring is how is it practical to give a shooter a bigger penalty for misses on a target more than 100 yards than one inside of 100? Practically speaking how is it better for you to remove a distance threat before you take out one much closer to you?

I am aware that gamers figured out that they might have a better result if they shot the close ones and then quicklly threw a few rounds at the distant targets to avoid FTE penalties but would you not accomplish the same thing if you gave the same penalty for all missed targets and for 200 yard targets make the target worth 20 pts, 300 yard targets worth 30pts, etc?

[Benelli Chick]

Horner scoring? 20 second penalty for each miss on a long range target. Keeps things simple. Use a minimum 4 MOA target, make it visible, tell the guys that can't hit it to practice more.

What I have never quite grasped about Horner Scoring is how is it practical to give a shooter a bigger penalty for misses on a target more than 100 yards than one inside of 100? Practically speaking how is it better for you to remove a distance threat before you take out one much closer to you?

I am aware that gamers figured out that they might have a better result if they shot the close ones and then quicklly threw a few rounds at the distant targets to avoid FTE penalties but would you not accomplish the same thing if you gave the same penalty for all missed targets and for 200 yard targets make the target worth 20 pts, 300 yard targets worth 30pts, etc?

He said he wanted to use time plus scoring and the targets aren't worth any points at all in time plus. Only your misses are worth time, unless you give a minus time bonus for hitting something.

[mpeltier]

I have shot at matches with many different scoring methods. It seems my observations are that it makes no differance how you score them, the same results or insignifacantly differant results would have posted were the distant targets scored differantly. Why exactly are we trying to come up with a differant penalty for distant targets?? Is it back to the question of gaming a stage again?? Just make the long range targets doable, visible and large enough,(they will still be challenging) so people wont be tempted to pass them up. Long range steel does not have to be worth more or cary a heavier penalty, and should not, in my opinion.

[Benelli Chick]

I also think, if you make all your stages worth the same points. Score time plus, but the first place guy gets 100 and each of the others gets a reverse percentage of points. e.g. Best time 20 seconds. Some guy who takes 40 seconds, gets a 50%. Some one who takes 25 seconds, gets an 80 precent.

If you do that on all of your local stages, you can still mess up the long range rifle and score well. However, if only one or two peopl shoot the long range well, they're still going to win, because they're going to get so many more points than the rest.

I don't know how long your stages take, but if the guy who knows he can't hit anything, just throws one round at each (to save money because he needs to practice and sight in under less stressful conditiond...) he'll still get 40 seconds in penalties (even if you don't double them up) and that'll hurt quite a bit anyway.

I was also thinking...little bonuses for hitting the long ones. Depending on how long you stage runs. Maybe 5 seconds for 300, 3 seconds for 200. Only problem with this is if the stage is too short, the good guys might get negatives and that'll throw a wrench in the works!!

Good luck! It takes some thinking to help the wide range of skills you get at local matches, let them have fun and help them get better!

[CraigS.]

Jason - If its fesible after the match, let the shooters practice on the long range targets.

we do this at the albany match.

The people who can't hit the targets appreciate the help and after they hit the targets they

know it is not impossible.

you might try keeping the targets within 200yds for a few matches then each month

start inching them out further.

Stick with the 100% for the stage winner it keeps the scores closer in the end.

See you in July, Craig

[RiggerJJ]

If you really are using time plus, make sure each stage worth 100 points and not add up all the raw times. that is what time plus means. It appears you are using raw time scoring, and there you WILL have one stage decide the match.

At our local matches we can only shoot paper with rifle (or clays), and at 200 yards, no more or less on the long rifle stage. we cannot do pistol or shotgun on that berm either. the backboard is wide enough to place 5 arrays of targets. Each array usually has 2 standard and 1 1/2 size classic target, and a 4in clay for a bonus target. we run 5 shooters, then go down and score those 5, tape em and do it again. The stage is also a Virginia count stage with a twist.

example: "from each position you may shoot a max of 5 rounds at your array, you have 6 positions and 3 targets plus the bonus. 8 shots will be scored on each paper target. the bonus is worth 10 if hit, no penality if missed or not engaged"

My point is, if maybe your 300 yard berm is wide enough that you could put some 200-ish paper targets up. that WILL seperate the "throw 4 and go" from the people who do really want to make their shots count.

I know its frustrating to drop all the cash needed for steel and not have anyone shoot em! Just doens't make sense to me. The last time I actually did it was at the Reno 3 Gun Nationals and it left a bad taste in my mouth...never done it since.

RM3G Raton has had this rule in the "Sportsmanship and Conduct" section it since the beginning, I think it was a throw over from SOF;

"RO’s may assess additional “unsportsmanlike conduct” penalties to competitors

that intentionally fail to make a good faith effort to engage and hit targets in order

to gain advantage. Coaching by other competitors is discouraged and spotting is

NOT allowed and considered “unsportsmanlike conduct.” The Match Director

shall be the final arbiter of any such penalties."

How do we police this? when its OBVIOUS that the shooter is not placing AIMED shots at the target, he get a verbal warning. If he continues to shoot un-aimed shots and moving on, then penalities are assesed by the RO. That has always done the trick, and I can't remember when this rule has actually been used for giving penalities. I do know some verbal warnings have been given thou. When ROing you can see a BIG difference between someone placing UN-AIMED shots and someone else who just can't hit the target...

Your thought of the "Spirt of the game" rule is actually a good one, it can be used but care needs to be applied. Again, RM3G has a similar rule under the "Sportsmanship and Conduct" section. I stole it from National and International Skydiving competition rules, I have seen it work and work well there. Here it is;

"For any controversy not precisely described in these rules, the “spirit of the rules”

will be applied to settle the matter. The “spirit of the rules” is a fair and equitable

opportunity for all the competitors to demonstrate their skills. In the Spirit of 3-

Gun, we ask all competitors to apply the “Spirit of the Rules” to their conduct and

shooting plans as well."

Don't use raw time scoring. You CAN "get er done" with standard time-plus scoring. Horner scoring is very effective in getting everyone to ENGAGE all of the targets. Sure, its assesing higher penalties to the least threat "targets" but as has been said so many times in the past, THIS IS A GAME and score is being kept. If you want to play "engage the highest threat 1st" go join the mall ninjas at I--A or join the Army...

jj

[kurtm]

Uh, no J.J. RM3G didn't have that in it from the begining, and it is not a hold over from S.O.F., S.O.F just plain didn't let you do anything like skip a target, and we never designed a stage where it was advisable to throw two and jet. That came along after the two Ms, the W, and the H did that match. That was never in our rules at the time, nor do I agree with it now, but hey that,s just me. KurtM

[Mike P]

First, don't look at it as one stage winning the match, look at it as a more complete skillset winning the match.

Second, 300 yards isn't really what is to be considered "long range". I'd look at trying to improve target presentation if you've not already done it. The black steel with yellow backers work great. Being able to see the target makes hitting them much easier. Other than that, it sounds like you are doing a great job.

[dmshozer1]

Went to a match where they had eight pp's at 300 yds. Behind them were eight us pp's.

You were forced to knock down the front eight then make the decision to knock down the rear eight

or just engage them.

16 failures and misses were to much to do the shoot and scoot!

[iggyort]

First, don't look at it as one stage winning the match, look at it as a more complete skillset winning the match.

Second, 300 yards isn't really what is to be considered "long range". I'd look at trying to improve target presentation if you've not already done it. The black steel with yellow backers work great. Being able to see the target makes hitting them much easier. Other than that, it sounds like you are doing a great job.

I agree, 300 Yds is not "long Range " They need to "Train-Up"

I use to be awful at 300 yds shooting . I fixed it with Ruger 10/22 , a bunch of Claybirds and regular practice.

I am quite comfortable at hitting anything out to 400 Yds now.

[werewolf45auto]

Jason,

I have shot one of your three gun match's. In fact it was my first three gun match with a lot of borrowed gear and I enjoyed it very much, so much that I made the plunge and have spent the last year getting all set up. First I did pretty well on the long range and still only placed 3rd or 4th, so I cant say that it decide the match. As I remember three of us tied the long range so technically it was some other stage or stages that decided the match. Then most important and fun factor for me is that three gun test your ability's with all three guns at distances and positions that are appropriate for each gun. From personal experience with only having shot three multi gun events I would say the biggest improvement to long range rifle is the ability TO SEE THE TARGET. I have very young eyes that are still working great and when someone places a black or white steel target in tall grass it gets hard to find. The other part of this is that, I THINK some people are always going to complain and maybe they should just practice. It's kinda like the guy (we all know one of these guys) who shows up every month and their gun doesn't work and they act all surprised like "why hasn't it fixed it's self" and they have excuses about bullet crimp and mags. I know I might sound harsh here but I do mean well and I'm only voicing MY opinions. I'm slower then some on close rifle targets and tend to do ok with the shot gun and long range rifle but I would never ask for the close rifle targets to be scored differently so that it doesn't decide my match. Instead I practice what I am weak at and I sight in my rifle and make sure my gear works. With all that said I want to add that scoring is the one thing I pretty much know nothing about.

Looking forward to your future events.

Dave

[Jason Klein]

Thanks everyone.

Dave: We are having two matches (depending on my employment, more if I am on lay-off status), and we have fixed the steel visibility issues. We hang no shoots behind the steel, paint the splash guard white and the popper black. No-shoot is only for visibility, not score. Makes them stand out a bit more and can be seen with red dots. Matches will be on July 17 and August 23.

I do agree with practice more, complain less. Still a lot of work to do, but should be ready to go and everyone still have fun.

Dave, I look forward to having you back again this year. There are some guys from CA that will be joining us for multi-gun fun.

[Benelli Chick]

Sound slike you've got a plan.

My only suggestion is that white can dissappear in sandy berms.

We use those yellow backers. You can get them from those lawn stage places.

Have some great matches!

[Charles Bond]

Uh, no J.J. RM3G didn't have that in it from the begining, and it is not a hold over from S.O.F., S.O.F just plain didn't let you do anything like skip a target, and we never designed a stage where it was advisable to throw two and jet. That came along after the two Ms, the W, and the H did that match. That was never in our rules at the time, nor do I agree with it now, but hey that,s just me. KurtM

Kurt since you thing about this a lot, would it be better (ie than say Horner scoring) to have a 3gun match rule that said that you could not stop shooting a stage until you had successfully engaged all of the targets unless you timed out or your equipment failed?

[Outsydlooknin75]

Uh, no J.J. RM3G didn't have that in it from the begining, and it is not a hold over from S.O.F., S.O.F just plain didn't let you do anything like skip a target, and we never designed a stage where it was advisable to throw two and jet. That came along after the two Ms, the W, and the H did that match. That was never in our rules at the time, nor do I agree with it now, but hey that,s just me. KurtM

Kurt since you thing about this a lot, would it be better (ie than say Horner scoring) to have a 3gun match rule that said that you could not stop shooting a stage until you had successfully engaged all of the targets unless you timed out or your equipment failed?

Thats almost too easy to game as well. Would running out of ammo be considered an equipment failure? If the stage has 20 rounds of close shots then 8 steel at distance, only use a single 30 round mag, shoot 20 at the close stuff throw 1 round at each of the steel to engage it then fire two more shots at the last target in the array and you now have a failure, you are out of ammo.

Unless of course it is specified that you have X number of rounds on you before you start the stage.

[Charles Bond]

Uh, no J.J. RM3G didn't have that in it from the begining, and it is not a hold over from S.O.F., S.O.F just plain didn't let you do anything like skip a target, and we never designed a stage where it was advisable to throw two and jet. That came along after the two Ms, the W, and the H did that match. That was never in our rules at the time, nor do I agree with it now, but hey that,s just me. KurtM

Kurt since you thing about this a lot, would it be better (ie than say Horner scoring) to have a 3gun match rule that said that you could not stop shooting a stage until you had successfully engaged all of the targets unless you timed out or your equipment failed?

Thats almost too easy to game as well. Would running out of ammo be considered an equipment failure? If the stage has 20 rounds of close shots then 8 steel at distance, only use a single 30 round mag, shoot 20 at the close stuff throw 1 round at each of the steel to engage it then fire two more shots at the last target in the array and you now have a failure, you are out of ammo.

Unless of course it is specified that you have X number of rounds on you before you start the stage.

To me running out of ammo is not equipment failure but rather a brain failure. Equipment failure is the gun breaking.

But replies like yours is why I tossed out the idea so keep them coming.

[bigbrowndog]

Charles to me that screams poor stage design as well as poor stage description, I would NEVER use a description as that on any stage and would not recommend it.

All of the questions on hitting targets or gaming a stage are solved by making target presentation, and stage max times more realistic, if everyone is hitting targets in a reasonable amount of time then it is not to your advantage to pass them by.

Trapr

[Charles Bond]

Charles to me that screams poor stage design as well as poor stage description, I would NEVER use a description as that on any stage and would not recommend it.

All of the questions on hitting targets or gaming a stage are solved by making target presentation, and stage max times more realistic, if everyone is hitting targets in a reasonable amount of time then it is not to your advantage to pass them by.

Trapr

And I agree with this completely.

Is it just me or is the extra penalty on long range steel being sometimes used as an excuse for the poor stage design you mention? Again it may just be me but it seems tha that the long range extra penalty for a miss has resulted in targets getting presented at longer ranges such that they are more and more difficult to even see. The lone exception to that was the BR3G this year at least from matches I have attended recently.

[bigbrowndog]

I tend to agree that MD are placing targets in more and more difficult positions or settings and trying to force competitors to hit them thru the use of penalties, only to have experienced shooters realize that the extra time NEEDED to effectively engage the targets still isn't worth it compared to the penalty. And then a MD gets upset and claims "gamers" are ruining the stage, when actually it was ruined by poor design from the start.

The tendency for MD's to place targets further and further away without regard to overall size, because another match has done the same is also creating problems that can easily be handled by simply implementing a 4moa rule to targets and distances, and ensuring that they can be seen with the naked eye under all match conditions.

Trapr

[Brian Payne]

Trapr

I like the idea of the 4 moa targets and having them set so everyone can see them in all conditions. The next question would be, how would you score these targets to ensure all shooters at least make an effort at hitting them?

An example would be the FN shoot stage 6. I think all of the targets were visible and all practiced shooters were able to make the hits. What scoring should have been used to avoid having someone just shooting six rounds downrange and taking the penalties? Would you put a higher penalty on the longer range targets?