CRO Experience Requirement

[Nik Habicht]

I am one of those who thinks that a CRO student needs to begin the course with more than just "I've had a RO card in my pocket for one year". It depends on the individual's specific experience. Has he shot a major match? Has he worked a major match? If the answers are "YES", than I expect that he is more prepared to absorb the instruction than someone who has not.

I get that -- and I totally agree that the greater the experience and exposure, the more the student will get out of the interaction with the instructor. I'm sure I could learn more during a refresher, than I absorbed four years ago....

It would be great if we could evaluate every potential student based upon his individual experience. But that's not likely. So, we need to publish a set of realistic prerequisites, whatever they are, so that potential students have the best possible opportunity to succeed.

Here's where we disagree. I believe NROI structured it too narrowly -- the experience requirement. Sure, it's incredibly easy to objectively evaluate. It also doesn't really help your situation. I'm actually eligible to take the class now since I worked an Area match --- all the way back in 2002. Of course I don't really remember that, but apparently you'd be good with enrolling someone who officiated at one Area match in the early 90s days after taking the Level 1, while rejecting folks who are actively (every month) working smaller matches now. That doesn't seem like the best way to grow the sport --- though it might make things easier for NROI and generate a higher percentage of completions of the program.

I'm really not trying to minimize the time suck and the frustration of having people not finish: I get that you guys are volunteering your time and have a different perspective -- and I'm grateful for the education that you've provided, not just to me personally, but to all of the ROs, CROs, RMs, and RMIs, I've encountered. Ultimately though, you're still part of USPSA, and if our focus is on growing the sport, then our programs should be congruent to maximize their support of that effort.

If it's too tough/timeconsuming for NROI to evaluate all applicants individually, then why not consider involving your larger support network in that? Establishing a way to bypass the major match requirement -- if there's a recommendation from an SC, and AD, an RM? Perhaps support from a couple of those individuals?

I hope, however, that you appreciate that NROI has to manage all it's policies to maximize the end product.

Sure. (I certainly don't think you guys sat down one day and went "How can be make this harder for the membership and the clubs?" I know that's never your intent or approach....)

I do hope that NROI appreciates that the membership may not always agree with how NROI manages its policies, and may work to change some of them.....

[George Jones]

I do hope that NROI appreciates that the membership may not always agree with how NROI manages its policies, and may work to change some of them.....

I think it's obvious, simply from the fact that Gary, Troy, and I are freely (and "lengthily" ) participating in this discussion. Like Troy, I suspect we'll be tweaking it, but the unrestricted approach has become problematic and needed change.

Edited May 29, 2010 by George Jones

[JThompson]

I do hope that NROI appreciates that the membership may not always agree with how NROI manages its policies, and may work to change some of them.....

I think it's obvious, simply from the fact that Gary, Troy, and I are freely (and "lengthily" ) participating in this discussion. Like Troy, I suspect we'll be tweaking it, but the unrestricted approach has become problematic and needed change.

What kind of rate of incomplete/failure are we talking about here George?

Also, I understand, very well, the time pressure you guys deal with... jobs, family and God forbid you should have some sort of life away from shooting. What we might need to push for is more trainers. I know some guys are waiting and others who drag their feet or just don't have what it takes. It might be beneficial not only to look at how and who to train, but also the training program itself.

Perhaps some of the long time RMs and CROs/ROs for that matter, the ones who you can all agree are capable of training CRO's and major level ROs could be enlisted to reduce the burden on the current NROI instructors. I have learned a lot over the past few years, but there are guys out here holding RO cards who know a lot more than I and have been "working" ROs/CRO for many years. It might be time to put the call out and have the current NROI staff recruit some of that talent and put it to work. Perhaps you could train-up some of those guys to teach. At the very least you might form some sort of committee from current top level CROs/RM type people to vet applicants on their skill level and suitability to becoming CROs. I would volunteer for a program like that. There are people out there, for whatever reason, are NOT cut out to be ROs, let alone CROs. Perhaps we could help you vet people and reduce some of your workload.

Hell, we know you guys get beat up doing all that you do. We don't want to lose you to burnout. Let's look at all aspects of the program and not just one piece.

Best,

JT

Edited May 29, 2010 by JThompson

[LPatterson]

As usual someone has pushed one of my hot buttons. NROI is trying to establish commitment before having its small RMI staff start trying to certify CRO's who only want a subset of what being a CRO is all about. How many prospective applicants have bothered to read the RO Creed or even know it exists? Stage design exists so that a CRO candidate can look at a paper stage and see if a problem might exist. Then when a stage is set up are there any problems? Local match stage design shows 5 paper targets around 1 side of a wall, plate rack & 2 paper targets through a port & 4 paper targets around another wall. Approved by selection committe and posted on web site. Not very free style & not legal BUT it is only a Level I. How many RO's are enforcing "Facing Uprange", last match 3 RO's let people look over their shoulder.

I became an RO because our club wanted to hold an Area match & needed RO's. I became a CRO when my club held a Level II seminar & went on to RO at a Back to Back Nationals where I learned what time management meant. I also discovered there is no substitute for experience running shooters.

"If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem."

[Nik Habicht]

I do hope that NROI appreciates that the membership may not always agree with how NROI manages its policies, and may work to change some of them.....

I think it's obvious, simply from the fact that Gary, Troy, and I are freely (and "lengthily" ) participating in this discussion. Like Troy, I suspect we'll be tweaking it, but the unrestricted approach has become problematic and needed change.

I get that -- it needed to change -- and I support that.....

I'm just pushing for more inclusiveness..........

Thank you for both the consideration and the participation here --- and I include Troy and Gary in that.

[MarkCO]

I think it is a step in the right direction and fully support it. I think there should be more requirements for ROs and local club officials as well, so I sent those recomendations to Troy.

Seek professionalism and consistency and those who ascribe to it will be drawn to it and those that don't will, thankfully, refuse it and the population therefore increases in overall performance.

[NickJ]

I think it is a step in the right direction and fully support it. I think there should be more requirements for ROs and local club officials as well, so I sent those recomendations to Troy.

Seek professionalism and consistency and those who ascribe to it will be drawn to it and those that don't will, thankfully, refuse it and the population therefore increases in overall performance.

Mark, what's your opinion of course design seminars, as an entity seperate from the CRO instruction?

[MarkCO]

Mark, what's your opinion of course design seminars, as an entity seperate from the CRO instruction?

I support that idea and feel it has some real merit. If you want to be a USPSA official, in any capacity, I beleive the RO cert should come first. Then, I think there are enough different roles to fulfill that some change may be beneficial over a course of say 5 years. Some may wish to go the route of course design, some CRO, some RM/MD. Personally, I'd like to be involved in teaching the RO course, but I have no desire to be a RM or MD at this time. Teaching someone to be a good RO has a different set of requirements than learning to be a good CRO, RM or MD. There is not a single professional license for any respectable profession that does not require a combination of proving your skill in writing and in the practical application thereof. There is NO professional sporting organization in the US except Practical Shooting, that does not constantly evaluate their officials, in all capacities and require experience to move up.

You've been in this game a long time Nick, so a question back at you...Do you worry when you go to a local match with courses designed by people who are not ROs and then hear LAMR from a person who was a new shooter 3 months ago and realize that to shoot the stage with 2 RO traps and 2 180 traps, if you do not instruct the RO how to follow you, you might end up looking at your dot on their face? Does that let you shoot the stage to the best of your ability and enjoy the match?

[NickJ]

Mark, what's your opinion of course design seminars, as an entity seperate from the CRO instruction?

I support that idea and feel it has some real merit. If you want to be a USPSA official, in any capacity, I beleive the RO cert should come first. Then, I think there are enough different roles to fulfill that some change may be beneficial over a course of say 5 years. Some may wish to go the route of course design, some CRO, some RM/MD. Personally, I'd like to be involved in teaching the RO course, but I have no desire to be a RM or MD at this time. Teaching someone to be a good RO has a different set of requirements than learning to be a good CRO, RM or MD. There is not a single professional license for any respectable profession that does not require a combination of proving your skill in writing and in the practical application thereof. There is NO professional sporting organization in the US except Practical Shooting, that does not constantly evaluate their officials, in all capacities and require experience to move up.

You've been in this game a long time Nick, so a question back at you...Do you worry when you go to a local match with courses designed by people who are not ROs and then hear LAMR from a person who was a new shooter 3 months ago and realize that to shoot the stage with 2 RO traps and 2 180 traps, if you do not instruct the RO how to follow you, you might end up looking at your dot on their face? Does that let you shoot the stage to the best of your ability and enjoy the match?

Hah! You know it bothers me. It's a discussion that's better held privately, and one that goes further and deeper. Somewhere along the way, match staff has stopped ensuring that there are qualified Range Officers on each squad, and if there are not someone picks up the clock and does his best. I still hear "do you understand the course of fire?" and- my favorite- "give me a nod when you're ready". That's all easily addressed I think, but course design is not. Noah's comment regarding course design is well said.

Edited May 29, 2010 by NickJ

[Nik Habicht]

I think it is a step in the right direction and fully support it. I think there should be more requirements for ROs and local club officials as well, so I sent those recomendations to Troy.

Seek professionalism and consistency and those who ascribe to it will be drawn to it and those that don't will, thankfully, refuse it and the population therefore increases in overall performance.

Personally, I'd like to be involved in teaching the RO course, but I have no desire to be a RM or MD at this time. Teaching someone to be a good RO has a different set of requirements than learning to be a good CRO, RM or MD.

Be prepared for matches to shut down -- and for USPSA to follow. It's always nice to hear strong opinions from folks who aren't willing to do the work....

[MarkCO]

I think it is a step in the right direction and fully support it. I think there should be more requirements for ROs and local club officials as well, so I sent those recomendations to Troy.

Seek professionalism and consistency and those who ascribe to it will be drawn to it and those that don't will, thankfully, refuse it and the population therefore increases in overall performance.

Be prepared for matches to shut down -- and for USPSA to follow. It's always nice to hear strong opinions from folks who aren't willing to do the work....

A personal slam from a moderator, who does not even know me, so obviosuly can't know that I DO work many matches...now that is class. Just FYI, the posting rules are at the top of the page.

Edited May 29, 2010 by MarkCO

[Nik Habicht]

I think it is a step in the right direction and fully support it. I think there should be more requirements for ROs and local club officials as well, so I sent those recomendations to Troy.

Seek professionalism and consistency and those who ascribe to it will be drawn to it and those that don't will, thankfully, refuse it and the population therefore increases in overall performance.

Be prepared for matches to shut down -- and for USPSA to follow. It's always nice to hear strong opinions from folks who aren't willing to do the work....

A personal slam from a moderator, who does not even know me, so obviosuly can't know that I DO work many matches...now that is class. Just FYI, the posting rules are at the top of the page.

You're right. I apologize. I'm pulling out of this one.....

[MarkCO]

Nik, appology accepted, thanks for the personal note as well. Best,

[JThompson]

Nik, appology accepted, thanks for the personal note as well. Best,

Nik gets a little excited now and then. We still love him.

JT

[aztecdriver]

Nik, appology accepted, thanks for the personal note as well. Best,

Nik gets a little excited now and then. We still love him.

JT

We all do - it means we care.

[JThompson]

Nik, appology accepted, thanks for the personal note as well. Best,

Nik gets a little excited now and then. We still love him.

JT

We all do - it means we care.

Indeed. Perhaps, "passionate" would have been a better word.

JT

Edited May 30, 2010 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

There's now an "experience requirement" to enroll in the CRO class, handed down by the NROI RMI group.

I hadn't heard of that.

?

As a Section Coordinator and former MD, I'm not certain that's a good idea -- IMHO we should be encouraging the folks who design and build stages at local (most) matches to get more education, and not make that process harder....

I am in 100% agreement. I sincerely believe that NROI ought to do whatever is possible to feed the education pipeline. I can see where some might consider working a major as part of that education, but I don't believe in mandating requirements to get into the classes.

[Flexmoney]

Additional food for thought:

Quanity or quality?

Which is better?

What, you guys aren't teaching quality???

[Flexmoney]

"... so effective June 1, 2010, prospective CRO students must work at least two level II matches or one level III match to be eligible to enroll in a CRO course."

page 24, May/June 2010, Front Sight magazine.

We don't have an Ohio Section match scheduled for 2010. (We need a range and a willing MD, for those that are wondering.)

This policy will drain me...the Ohio Section Coordinator...of CRO's.

Please revise. I have a saying, "Involvement equals commitment." We need people feeding into the pipeline.

Let them take the class.

One thing NROI could do that would GREATLY help the core is to increase communication.

This topic is a perfect example. Here I am, CRO...Match Director...Section Coordinator...and, I even get on the shooting forums a bit ... ...and I am hearing about this policy just now???

How about an email sign up list (at least), where NROI news, info and experiences get sent out from time to time?

[ima45dv8]

How about an email sign up list (at least), where NROI news, info and experiences get sent out from time to time?

I like that idea.

I also Like Nik's idea about possibly having a recommendation from local match officials and/or experienced NROI members act as the prerequisite for admission into the CRO course. The RM course has a similar requirement, which I support, and maybe something along those lines would help meet the goal of getting motivated people involved. Possibly it could be applied as an alternative -- Level II experience, or a referral from trusted individuals.

[George Jones]

What, you guys aren't teaching quality???

We try....

But it's both about teachin' and about learnin'

[Sarge]

Flex, this is what I mentioned at the match last week.

I for one, am interested in taking the CRO course after I get my one year RO requirement over with this summer. I want to get more involved in the sport in general not just show up and shoot. I think it should be left up to the MD's of major matches to pick an RO or CRO based on their experience level. After being an RO for a year and getting CRO this fall would not make me the best candidate to work a stage at the Nationals because I would be an unknown, but it sure would help take some of the load off at my clubs local matches.

As a side note I have somebody checking to see if my RO stint at the IPSC Nationals last year qualifies me for CRO under the new policy. I'll post when I find something out.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Sarge

[Flexmoney]

What, you guys aren't teaching quality???

We try....

But it's both about teachin' and about learnin'

The students are dumb?? (I come from a family with a number of teachers.)

[Flexmoney]

Flex, this is what I mentioned at the match last week.

Yeah, that is the first I had heard of it, and I thought there must have been some miscommunication along the way. You were right.

[Sarge]

I'm glad this thread came along. After you said you had not heard about it I thought sure it was a bogus rumor.