So when is a "A" hit not worth it..

[Chills1994]

tagged for later.... I gotta head out. I'll be back to write more though.

[DyNo!]

Just shoot the targets when you see them. Hit the paper and be happy, get your times down to the winners time or better. Don't even consider the points, just hit the targets. Do this for several matches until you know what it is like to move through the stage and hit everything with a good time. Once you have this down, now don't think of it anymore. Go get your points and learn to do that at your new pace.

I believe that you can only do one thing concsiously at a time. I don't believe one thing will automatically happen without conscious effort first to ingrain that "one thing" into the subconscious. Once various aspects of the game are ingrained into the subconscious they happen automatically.

Drop down to 90% of the pts and I'm not even sure you'll get a new speed. It will be the speed you shoot forever until you decide on a different one.

This "go slow, get your hits, the speed will come" is CRAP to me. Until I made the effort to haul ass and hit the targets I didn't improve much. My .02cents.

I agree - I only shoot to my potential when I'm pushing the envelope.

My analogy is this -

it's like holding a tall stick on the tip of your hand and running as fast as you can with it.

It's about seeing what you can get away with.

[Chills1994]

back in about 2006 or 2007 when I was shooting IDPA, a fellow IDPA'er had clued me into his rule of thumb. if you were to take a look at some major IDPA match results, you'll notice that the top master classed shooters in the semi-auto divisions are shooting the entire major match at a pace right around the minimum round count required for the match.

so now it is three or four years later and I use that same rule of thumb for shooting USPSA stages.

yeah granted some stages are just stand and shoot and others are more run in gun...but basically I am satisified if my raw time for the stage ends up being less than the MRC for that stage.

I have pretty much figured that the better open division shooters will shoot stages at about half the MRC....again that varies with the CoF design.

if you are bored and have some time to kill you can take a look at the top finishers at the past couple of production nationals....figure out the MRC for the match and then add their stage times together to get a total cumulative match time. compare those two and see what ya get.

[eerw]

good thread..tag for later reading..

you know..I have never been able to shoot for a HHF even after figuring what it was.

best I could ever do was shoot as many points as I could as fast as I could see the sights.

anyway good reading.

DocMedic, you are asking good questions, just don't get caught up in them.

[G-ManBart]

Don't confuse fast stage times with shooting fast. Watch video of a Production super squad and you won't see much in the way of blazing fast splits except on really, really close targets (where they're getting A's anyway). They're getting fast stage times, but it's not happening by shooting fast. R,

Edit to clarify: By this I'm saying that the top shooters aren't generally trading points for time. They're shooting as fast as they can shoot Alphas knowing that a few will always wind up as Charlies. Also, consider that when there's hard cover or no-shoots, you may slightly shy away from the HC or NS for a smidge of safety and that can cause a few more Charlies.

Edited July 4, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Supermoto]

Don't confuse fast stage times with shooting fast. Watch video of a Production super squad and you won't see much in the way of blazing fast splits except on really, really close targets (where they're getting A's anyway). They're getting fast stage times, but it's not happening by shooting fast. R,

I agree 100%, you shoot for points, everything else is for time

[BoyGlock]

just my .02

I always intend to shoot all "A"s at whatever target presentation the cofs have. I believe every A I shoot is worth my time and effort. Most IPSC shooters are very concerned to shoot most As only in Prod Div. But I beg to simplify the matter. Even in Std div, my intention to shoot for As are as strong as when I shoot prod or open divs. I want to develop the habit of shooting As all the time in any practice or match situations. This way, shooting As will be automatic/second nature. Of course most of the time I fail in my intentions, but not much. At present I usually score a stage in the match w/ a few Cs, no D. And there were a few perfect all As in medium and long cofs in matches. But my times were far from slow, at least in my standards. Just 2 weeks ago I shot in a local lev 1 match in std div and scored all As in a 28 rnd cof and my time was the second best in that stage. But the best timer had 1 miss and not so few downs. I would rather have the second best time and all As any time

Edited July 7, 2010 by BoyGlock

[Sarge]

Very good thread so I thought I'd revive it.

I'm still new to the game myself but by shooting a match nearly every weekend during the season and being a student of the game I consider myself to have caught on quick.

A few observations of mine are that I agree with the concept of just shooting as fast as you can while still shooting as many A's as possible. I shot with a brand new shooter recently who was shooting 1" groups right in the center of the A zone but he was nearly 3 times slower than me and I'm not all that fast. He was frustrated so I told him to shoot faster because the A zone is pretty big and he doesn't get extra credit for shooting tight groups. When he wondered about how fast to shoot I told him that he will know. Next stage he shot really fast(and safe) but threw alot of fringe C's and D's. When he walked over to me he said "I see what you mean". By the end of the match he had found a comfortable range of quicker times and mostly A's with a smattering of C's. I told him that doing well is a combination of shooting good points as fast as you can. And as you get better it all starts to come together much faster.

I also agree with the comments regarding throwing C's when you are trying to stay away from no shoots. A local M told me that unless you are right on top of the target my aiming point should be center of mass of whats left of the targetor words to that effect.

[Cy Soto]

I also agree with the comments regarding throwing C's when you are trying to stay away from no shoots. A local M told me that unless you are right on top of the target my aiming point should be center of mass of whats left of the targetor words to that effect.

I am no Master level shooter but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this statement... I asked this same question to Glenn Higdon a while back and he was pretty emphatic when he said that I should calculate the cost of two "C's" and how most times sacrificing these points would be counterproductive. Do keep in mind that at that time I was shooting Production and two "C's" in Minor will come back to haunt you at the end of the day.

I would rather pick a spot on the upper 1/3 part of the "A" zone and aim for that spot every time. I aim at this 4" x 6" inch spot regardless of whether I have an fully open target or a partial. Most times this segment of the "A" zone is available to the shooter (even when the bottom portion of the "A" zone is obscured by hard cover or a no-shoot).

[Sarge]

I also agree with the comments regarding throwing C's when you are trying to stay away from no shoots. A local M told me that unless you are right on top of the target my aiming point should be center of mass of whats left of the targetor words to that effect.

I am no Master level shooter but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this statement... I asked this same question to Glenn Higdon a while back and he was pretty emphatic when he said that I should calculate the cost of two "C's" and how most times sacrificing these points would be counterproductive. Do keep in mind that at that time I was shooting Production and two "C's" in Minor will come back to haunt you at the end of the day.

I would rather pick a spot on the upper 1/3 part of the "A" zone and aim for that spot every time. I aim at this 4" x 6" inch spot regardless of whether I have an fully open target or a partial. Most times this segment of the "A" zone is available to the shooter (even when the bottom portion of the "A" zone is obscured by hard cover or a no-shoot).

If I had a target at 15-20 yards with a no shoot covering the right C & D zones I would tend to be happier with 2 C's than I would 2 mikes and 2 NS. To me that sounds like a good choice. I shoot production and realize 2 C's can be costly but not nearly as much as the other possible outcome. I do tend to think as a B or C shooter it's the right call.

[Cy Soto]

If I had a target at 15-20 yards with a no shoot covering the right C & D zones I would tend to be happier with 2 C's than I would 2 mikes and 2 NS. To me that sounds like a good choice. I shoot production and realize 2 C's can be costly but not nearly as much as the other possible outcome. I do tend to think as a B or C shooter it's the right call.

You bring up a good point; let's explore it a bit further...

From your description I am visualizing a target that has a no-shoot covering the C/D zone on one side of the target with all of the A zone and the C/D on the opposite side available to you. We know the A zone is approximately 6" wide by 11" tall and, for the sake of argument, that we are shooting at this target from a distance of 20yds. In my case, I know that my load and pistol combination is capable of maintaining a 2" group off hand at this distance but, because I am trying to shoot at speed, let's say that the adrenaline is doubling the size of these groups; which is still well within the A zone. On an open target I can shoot two alphas at 20 yards with a 0.55 to 0.60 second split. If I slow down because of the no-shoot, I may extend this split to 0.70 sec (and keep in mind that these are very conservative numbers because I am only a B shooter).

If the alpha zone is completely available to the shooter, that no-shoot is nothing more than a distraction and put in place so that shooters can second guess their ability (it is all mental). I know that you are a dedicated shooter that has spent enough time in the range to be comfortable not only with the level of accuracy but also familiar with the point of impact of your bullet at this this distance.

With this information in mind, would you not agree that two alphas in an extra in an extra 0.10 to 0.15 sec are better served than two charlies?

Another point that I would like to mention is that, at least in my case, I never go to a COF with the intention of hitting a no-shoot or having mikes. I am not saying that it doesn't happen, but my game plan never involves these negative aspects. I tell myself that I only shoot alphas and that I can do it faster and more efficiently than anyone else in the match. Heck, I have shot against Production GM's on many occasions and in my mind, I beat them at their own game 100% of the time. What if I am not a GM (yet)? I will still beat them because I am faster, smoother, and more accurate than any of them. Move over Sevigny; here I come!!

Like I mentioned before, this game is mental brother and as such we have to believe that we can perform at 110% of our ability 100% of the time. The moment you start second guessing your ability and allowing that no-shoot to intimidate you into dropping four points, you are welcoming defeat.

[JAFO]

In my case, I know that my load and pistol combination is capable of maintaining a 2" group off hand at this distance

You know, I haven't even tried to find out what kind of group I'd have at this distance. Thanks for giving me the next thing to check on!

[BoyGlock]

Like I mentioned before, this game is mental brother and as such we have to believe that we can perform at 110% of our ability 100% of the time. The moment you start second guessing your ability and allowing that no-shoot to intimidate you into dropping four points, you are welcoming defeat.

+100...in my mental game, its only black or white. once I see gray, it becomes inutile and could work against me...

[jeremy kemlo]

a's are good but I have shot stages where I had all a's and got killed by someone who went really fast with a's and c's. At the end of the match see if they will let you shoot a stage several times for practice. Shoot slow and then shoot fast and then shoot the stage a third time really fast. compare scores and see which one was best. That is easy math :}

[Mig01]

Very interesting thread.

I am fairly inexperienced in IPSC and have been a slow shooter at all the matches I have participated in. By slow I mean that I will have double the transition time than the fastest shooters and double their split time on anyone targets, except on very close targets (5 yards or less) where I will be only 50% slower than the fast guys.

I usually get 90% of the points and I shoot minor in Standard division (I will start shooting major as soon as I get my sightracker in .40 caliber). On long COFs, I get anywhere between 45% and 55% of overall points and on short COFs, where less overall movement is required and where there are not as many or no reloads I do better. In fact, I won a few short stages against much faster shooters where little or no movement is involved and when targets were at 10 yards or farther.

Where I really waste time is, as others have mentioned; draws, reloads, moving between shooting positions (including almost never shooting a target while on the move). What I have to concentrate on is:

- effective and efficient stage planning AND fluid execution of the plan;

- reload practice;

- splits and transition time (that includes shooting at an acceptable sight picture for As rather than a perfect sight picture for center As):

- draw practice.

I put reloads second, because in Canada, all divisions are limited to ten rounds (it is illegal to have a magazine with a higher capacity) so reloads are frequent. I put draw last because this is not where I will improve my hit factor a lot, especially on long COFs

[ozdogg5]

a's are good but I have shot stages where I had all a's and got killed by someone who went really fast with a's and c's. At the end of the match see if they will let you shoot a stage several times for practice. Shoot slow and then shoot fast and then shoot the stage a third time really fast. compare scores and see which one was best. That is easy math :}

It amazes me how I can shoot A's at a pretty fast speed and still get killed by someone shooting some D's and M's at lightning speed! I want to push the envelope like these fellas but am afraid that it will lead to poor progression (faster yet not as accurate). To me, Alpha's the name of the game - for now!

[dzhitshard]

^{It amazes me how I can shoot A's at a pretty fast speed and still get killed by someone shooting some D's and M's at lightning speed!}

^{I searched several pages of threads in numerous rooms for insight into this question today. I ran my 5th match yesterday & got steamrolled using that example.}

^{I took 3rd in my division of 20 shooters but got hammered by the 1st place shooter who had 6 Mikes & twice that number of Deltas. I had 3 deltas on the day & less than 2 dozen C's finishing around 45 seconds off him on total match time.}

^{Granted, I am a one legged fat man but I wasn't that far off his movement times & we both had concluded on taking the same progression technique on all but 1 stage. I figure I lost 6+ seconds to bad reloads I had to strip from the magwell & probably a total of 3-4 seconds due to draw (I'm not currently equiped with a game holster let alone a race holster)}

^{I had a mind melt down on a stage where I took 3rd shot that cost me at leat .5 second, missed my planned reload while moving, & shot to slidelock & overstepped a target before having to backtrack to not break 180. I'm guessing I had 6 seconds or so total loss on that . This stage mi}

^{I figure as a guess that he outgunned me for a realistic 25-ish seconds on movement and hosing when I subtract my mistakes mechnical & mental meltdown.}

^{I read the replies to this thread but I'm still left wondering how to make the call on the fly @ a match & decide if it's worth breaking away from center Azone & accepting more C's?}

^{Is it a call that you simply don't make at a match & you just accept to place where you fall and maintain your technique or is there a switch to flip in effort to strive for the win?}

[Flexmoney]

^{It amazes me how I can shoot A's at a pretty fast speed and still get killed by someone shooting some D's and M's at lightning speed!}

^{I searched several pages of threads in numerous rooms for insight into this question today. I ran my 5th match yesterday & got steamrolled using that example.}

^{I took 3rd in my division of 20 shooters but got hammered by the 1st place shooter who had 6 Mikes & twice that number of Deltas. I had 3 deltas on the day & less than 2 dozen C's finishing around 45 seconds off him on total match time.}

^{Granted, I am a one legged fat man but I wasn't that far off his movement times & we both had concluded on taking the same progression technique on all but 1 stage. I figure I lost 6+ seconds to bad reloads I had to strip from the magwell & probably a total of 3-4 seconds due to draw (I'm not currently equiped with a game holster let alone a race holster)}

^{I had a mind melt down on a stage where I took 3rd shot that cost me at leat .5 second, missed my planned reload while moving, & shot to slidelock & overstepped a target before having to backtrack to not break 180. I'm guessing I had 6 seconds or so total loss on that . This stage mi}

^{I figure as a guess that he outgunned me for a realistic 25-ish seconds on movement and hosing when I subtract my mistakes mechnical & mental meltdown.}

^{I read the replies to this thread but I'm still left wondering how to make the call on the fly @ a match & decide if it's worth breaking away from center Azone & accepting more C's?}

^{Is it a call that you simply don't make at a match & you just accept to place where you fall and maintain your technique or is there a switch to flip in effort to strive for the win?}

is getting through the stage faster really about shooting more sloppy? Or, are there other MAJOR contributors to time beside the actually shooting part?

[3Sigma]

As a relatively new IPSC shooter I made a conscious decision to really learn to call my shots for each and every shot during a match not thinking of "I'll shoot slow to get A's" but just letting the sights dictate the pace. A senior shooter once told me "push yourself during practice and just relax during a match" which I have also read somewhere in this forum. This is what I believed in my progression from being a Class D to Class B.

But there are times I am tempted to just be sloppy and shoot fast. I was frustrated to lose to other shooters who would just crank away at targets with C's or D's and still beat me because of time. This usually happens more so when the match has mostly hoser stages which is often the case during Level 1 matches from where I come from. Things get better in level 2 and up matches were the stages present longer and tighter targets and often find the same shooters way below me in the standings. I am hoping that by just sticking with it my visual skills improve to the point that I can be competitive whatever the course design may be.

[Norther]

I'm with Kyle. Cut the time everywhere else, but you need the points. Dryfire and practice to cut sight acquisition and transition time, work on your movement and stage planning, etc. but make sure the points are there. It's not hard, it just takes work

[shtr3]

Great thread, i am where this guy is and this info has been great.

[kneelingatlas]

I recently shot a match shoulder to shoulder with a GM and I was amazed that he didn't shoot any faster than anyone else, the difference was the way he moved: no wasted steps, no hesitation and he exploded between arrays. That what I was missing, the little voice in my head screaming "move your ass!"

[shtr3]

I recently shot a match shoulder to shoulder with a GM and I was amazed that he didn't shoot any faster than anyone else, the difference was the way he moved: no wasted steps, no hesitation and he exploded between arrays. That what I was missing, the little voice in my head screaming "move your ass!"

+1111111

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