Anyone Use A Pocket Pc Or Palm?

[Paradox]

I preformed a search, but didn't find any topics concerning this... but...

Being a computer geek by trade, I would like to help out my local club by entering match scores electronically - at the stage. (Can always keep paper score sheets as a backup)

Seems that there are many shooters that want to know thier ranking throughout the match. - Even when they should be focusing on the task at hand

I have a Pocket PC and thought about using a spreadsheet to enter scores and tabulate them on the fly. However, is there a version of eZWinScore that runs on Pocket PC 2002 or 2003?

Surely someone has thought of this before, but if no one has an application they are currently using, I will be happy to share my spreadsheet.

Thanks,

Justin

[Merlin Orr]

Wasn't there something in Front Sight bout this? I looked but have some older copies lent to friends. Some major match has been done with Palms....

[BritinUSA]

I am not aware of anything for the Pocket PC, but there is the Palm based scoring system that you can find here. It is very good and a few big name shooters have used to whilst shooting on the super squad to keep track of who is winning.

Rbo Boudrie also did some testing with the software at an Area match last year...

AutoScoringSystems

[Paradox]

I do remember reading about this somewhere, just couldn't remember exactly. I may just write some excel spreadsheets for my Pocket PC.

Thanks for the suggestions! If anyone else has some more ideas please post

[Vince Pinto]

Paradox,

There are also some other software programs for Palm (not Pocket PC) on this Brazilian website but they might not be much use to you unless you speak Portuguese!

[Julien Boit]

I do use the ASS (that's the short name for Auto scoring system ) and It's nice.

I think it was used at the infinty open and tested on an area championship (but can't remember which).

It's cool to being able to track your scores and ranking after the last shot of each stage.

It make a nice tool for tactics (No I don't throw it a people when out of ammo ) and I know if I had to shoot carefully or if I have to take risks.

It help gaming stages by doing simulations which given time and point for each options you look for.

As far as I know, it only work for Palm.

[lynn jones]

the only way to get a pocket pc to do the scoring is to run a excel spread sheet. i 've done a spread sheet and it works ok.. but the plam system is the best by far. our club uses the palm system exclusively to score our matches now, immediate results no incomplete scoresheets.

lynn

[D.Hayden]

Probably more than you want to do, but you could write the same functionallity in an application - just write it in Visual Basic (I think you'll need: Software Development Kit for Windows Mobile 2003-based Pocket PCs)

This war (PocketPC vs. Palm)m, Microsoft lost, but still won't admit it.

[Vince Pinto]

Dave,

Why do you say Microsoft lost the "PDA Wars"? I don't use a PDA (my cellphone's PIM is enough for me), but according to this report:

"While Palm OS has been the leading operating system to date, PDAs with Windows-based operating systems will increase significantly. By 2005 Palm and Windows will each have a 50% share."

I also understand that the Microsoft Pocket PC OS is used by Dell, Casio, Sony, Toshiba, Fujitsu, NEC, Hewlett Packard & Compaq, so you'd have to be a brave man to ignore such major players.

[D.Hayden]

Vince, I just say that because (outside of developers), I don't know anyone that uses them. I have one, and develop for it, but only for Intra-company work. They may take off with the new phone work (the PDC in Los Angeles showed some pretty cool products), along with the car 'applicances', etc., but only time will tell.

But, outside of us geeks, do you know anyone that uses one? When I see normal consumers buying them, I might believe it. I would swear I've seen these same forecasts for the last 3 years, I just don't see it yet.

Added:

Quick addition: I think, most consumers think of them as Palms, and PDA = Palms. Once apps are written to more open standards it won't matter - The PocketPC's will be able to run everything, but until there's a good JVM (from Sun or Microsoft, or other major player) that'll run there - it's going to be a struggle to break out of the included apps only game

Edited January 15, 2004 by BerKim

[Neil Beverley]

BerKim

We’re using PocketPC PDAs (iPACs) extensively at work particularly, for taking multiple item orders at trade exhibitions. Typically 100+ items from a range of around 8000 products. We scan in a bar code and the appropriate stock and pricing info is displayed. It’s much faster than writing the order by hand. We have over 30 PDAs in use and they’ve been a great success. Orders are printed via an IR link and are subsequently emailed back to our main offices for processing. We hardly have to do anything back at the office but still run them through filters to check for any errors and extravagant pricing, etc.

Some of the sales staff are now using them extensively on the road along with a portable printer.

We chose PocketPC over any Palm system offered and just felt it did the job better.

In the UK it appears there are more sales applications offered on PPC than on Palm.

While we bought in a “sales order taking” package we are looking at starting our own application development in the future. I currently employ 5 programmers but none have any experience in this field just yet and are all very busy on other projects just now.

I bought a “in car navigation” package for my other half, Kathy, for Christmas and I again chose a PocketPC system in preference to a Palm system but largely because it was the same platform as we use at work. She’s over the moon with it and in addition has really taken to Pocket Outlook which she’s fully transferred her diary and addresses to.

I have also created a scoring program in Excel but haven’t quite finished it or yet had the time to test on the PDA. I’m fairly confident it’ll work OK as it’s not particularly complicated.

If I was a betting man I would put money on PocketPC starting to clearly pull ahead of Palm during 2004/5.

[D.Hayden]

Neil, I think companies will adopt them for applications, if they're already a Microsoft shop, since they can use the same application environment. And then people that have them may use them at home.

Just curious:

How many people do you know that have just bought one vs Palm, over there?

Are people buying applications for them?

[DogmaDog]

OK,

We have palm pilots you can punch scores into.

When is someone going to make a little microphone you can stick into the expansion card slot so you can use the Palm as a TIMER and score calculator?

For that matter, when will someone write software for my cellphone that will allow it to be used as a shot timer? I mean, it can make noise, it can hear noise, and it stores the times I received calls...why not shots???

Just seems like ~$120 is a lot, and shot timers are really enormous compared to gadgets that do some of the same things (~$10 for an accurate stopwatch)

I'd buy a palm pilot if it could be used as a shot timer.

DogmaDog

[Rob Boudrie]

I ran the Palm Scoring test at Area 7 and the Infinity Open.

It worked well in both cases but, at present, the movement of data from the Palms into EzWinScore involves a stand-alone Microsoft Access application. A full report of the test at Area 7 test is posted at www.boudrie.com/Area7_Palm_Scoring.html

The Ms/Acess approach to data movement has to problems:

1. You need MS/Access on your system

2. Several manual steps to set it up (Start the Sybase anywhere database ending, exit ezwinscore, open three tables via access with specified keys)

BUT....

USPSA and Automated Scoring Systems just entered into an agreement in which:

a. Automated Scoring Systems will allow USPSA to use the Palm software for free at any USPSA National Championship. (No, there has been no decision to actually do this). Auto Scoring Systems will also update their program to conform to the new USPSA version of the IPSC rules.

2. USPSA will enhance EzWinScore to support data transfer from the Palms directly without any need to MS/Access, and with a *much* simpler process. Once this is done, Palm scoring can be a reality for any club willing to buy Palms and the software.

The catch? AutoScoring Systems "USPSS" product is a commercially sold product, not something USPSA "owns".

I hae written an article about this for Front Sight, but am holding off on submitting it until actual availability of official support in EzWinscore is a bit closer to release.

[Merlin Orr]

OK,

We have palm pilots you can punch scores into. 

When is someone going to make a little microphone you can stick into the expansion card slot so you can use the Palm as a TIMER and score calculator? 

I'd buy a palm pilot if it could be used as a shot timer.

DogmaDog

I'm with the Dog.

As per Mr Boudrie's statement - The Plot Thickens. It is time scoring and data entry move to the 21st....

[Neil Beverley]

Just curious:

How many people do you know that have just bought one vs Palm, over there?

Are people buying applications for them?

BerKim

I have insufficient data to properly comment. I know of a couple of friends who are using PDAs, both PocketPCs, but haven't discussed what they're using them for.

Commercially the sales package we're using was written very much with our industry in mind and so it obviously attracts other companies that are similar to ourselves. Additionally we are certainly regarded as one of the major players in the industry and so where we go others follow. this combines to give a slightly biased picture.

I'm off to a big exhibition in a couple of weeks and out of curiosity I'm going to try to assess if there is a bigger take up in the use of PDAs generally and which type people have gone for. If I get anything conclusive I'll let you know.

I would be quite keen to see a proper development of a scoring program for the PocketPCs and in time it's going to become easier and easier to link this to the main scoring server, perhaps relayed via bluetooth or some some radio lan.

Add to this the weatherproof cases that are available for some models and it could be bye bye soggy score sheets.

I guess the problem is going to be who would want to develop it, the market place won't be huge and could be disparate in take up of different systems.

Actually I'd love to have a go but I have very limited programming skills so I would have to start at the beginning. I'm sure in time that I could crack it but I haven't got a hope in hell time wise for some considerable time to come yet. Years rather than months. I have to earn a living.

[Rob Boudrie]

Although I am not writing the Palm software of the EzWinScore interface, I am the conduit (Palmies will understand) via which the specs and requirements will be established.

What I expect to be supported:

1. Initial registration in EzWinScore. Transfer registration data to Palms

before match. (Be sure to include a couple of "spare" shooters in the Palm -

you can change their name and membership number later).

2. Initial stage definition in EzWinScore, transferred to Palms.

3. Scores transferred from Palm to EzWinScore with two options:

a. Overwrite - if score for a stage already exists in EzWinScore, overwrite it

b. Non- overwrite - if score for a stage already exists in EzWinScore, leave

it in place and do not overwrite on a Palm sync.

The Palm transfer directory will be set up in the match config screen, so

updating scores in ExWinScore will consist of:

a. Collect scores from each stage via IR beaming to a master palm

b. Place Palm in cradle cabled to PC, press sync button.

c. Go into Scoring on the Palm and press the "import palm scores" button

optionally:

d. Post results on the in-clubhouse web server, so that competitors can

visit any of the workstations set up around the periphery of the clubhouse

to checks their score as the match progresses.

[ Yes, I plan on doing "d" at A7/2004 ]

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

As far as using PDAs at IPSC matches is concerned, here are my (War 'n' Peace length) thoughts in no particular order:

1. As a personal or team scorekeeper during a match, they can be excellent, but I think their future as a Major Match scoring system is doubtful at best. This is because each stage would need to have at least one PDA and the appropriate scoring software loaded thereon and an IR (or cable) to facilitate date transfer plus you'd need a couple of "transfer" units to act as "data couriers" between the stages and Stats.

Unless there's a sponsor willing to loan or donate the required PDAs, the cost of equipping a Major Match is prohibitive, and don't even think about asking each RO to bring his own compatible PDA. Of course I'm thinking here of the "worst case scenario" - World Shoot with 36 stages - where we're effectively talking at least 40 PDA units plus the software.

However even when used as a personal scoring tool, you still have absolutely no idea of your ranking in the match because the most scores you can enter and tally are your own squad. So, unless you're in the Super Squad (and even then competitors in other squads can throw a spanner in the works), PDAs do not provide the outcome (or an accurate running total of match results) until everybody's final scores have been entered, and that's still handled by Stats.

2. Writing and updating IPSC software (e.g. after rule changes) for one OS is already a challenge, and you'd have to be a brave guy to dismiss other existing OS platforms (and possibly others yet to be released). Will such future updates be free to existing users and, if so, for how long? If not free, then there'll be "update" costs to be paid to the software vendor.

3. A guy who has a PDA running "OS1" is unlikely to want to buy another PDA running "OS2" just to score IPSC matches and, as far as I know, OS1 cannot read software or data written in OS2 and vice versa - I'm thinking Betamax vs VHS, or PAL vs NTSC here. Of course if it's merely a case of Windows vs Macintosh, "data converters" might be available.

4. PDAs must, by definition, be small and compact, and this means the display size is limited. For Major Match Scoring, where most ROs are in their 40's or older, the small displays become a real challenge to read, even in the best natural lighting. Throw in some overcast weather and we'll have ROs tapping "D" instead of "C" or vice versa.

5. We must give a paper "receipt" to each competitor after the stage he just shot has been scored, and this must be signed by the RO and the competitor. Of course the "receipt" only needs to be "recalled" if and when the PDA loses power or otherwise fails and scores are lost, but good battery management should be able to reduce (but not totally eliminate) such occurrences, however electronic devices are never foolproof. In any case, we still need to issue receipts otherwise any scores lost will require reshoots which are rarely (if ever?) given today due to both copies of a scoresheet being lost.

6. Contrary to one misleading sales pitch, PDAs are not more accurate than paper scoring. If you tap the wrong scoring zone for a target or enter the incorrect time, the PDA is still wrong. At best, the PDA's only "greater accuracy" is that they stop you entering, say, 3 scoring shots for a single target but, in reality, how often does that happen with paper based scoring? From what I understand at the last World Shoot, only about 50 of +28,000 score sheets had problems - that's only 0.18% - which is quite different from the "15 to 20%" claims made by one vendor.

7. Another misleading sales pitch says that PDA allow you to "calculate match results in X seconds", as if we can't do that now. Well WinMSS can do exactly the same thing. In both cases, it's just a few keystrokes on the PDA or on the PC after all scores have been entered and match results are finalised in seconds.

8. The biggest benefit of using PDAs is that scores do not need to be recorded at the stage then re-entered by hand at Stats - in theory, you just download them and the interface between the PDA OS and the PC OS does all the grunge work in record time but, if you have sufficient Stats staff, this benefit is only evident in the dying hours of the last day of the match. Having said that, the Stats team from the last World Shoot had provisional results for all 36 stages for 800 competitors posted within 1 hour of the final shot being made - not too shabby for the Jurassic Period.

9. Yet another misleading sales pitch says "Mrs. Top Shooter tried my system at The Mother Of All Matches and said it was foolproof" but Super Squad Shooter Mr. Harry Hoser, told me ".... the PDA scoring software Mrs. Top Shooter was testing at our Nationals and The Mother Of All Matches crashed several times losing all the data". Go figure.

In conclusion, being a high-tech kinda guy and despite the fact that my lengthy comments above will be considered by some to be "negativity" instead of "reality", I think scoring by PDA is a wondeful thing for certain tasks. However paraphrasing my old mate Dirty Harry "A machines gotta know it's limitations".

[Rob Boudrie]

they can be excellent, but I think their future as a Major Match scoring system is doubtful at best.

[5. We must give a paper "receipt" to each competitor after the stage he just shot has been scored, and this must be signed by the RO and the competitor. Of course the "receipt" only needs to be "recalled" if and when the PDA loses power or otherwise fails and scores are lost, but good battery management should be able to reduce (but not totally eliminate) such occurrences, however electronic devices are never foolproof. In any case, we still need to issue receipts otherwise any scores lost will require reshoots which are rarely (if ever?) given today due to both copies of a scoresheet being lost.

[

Area 7 and the Infinity Open would disagree with the claim of "doubtful" .

As to paper reciepts: Area 7 and Infinity both used paper reciepts of hit totals and times written down after scoring. Infinity was slicker, since we used muti-part perf "stubs" which reduced the number of sheets of paper (7 stage entires on a single 8.5x11 sheet) kept by stats.

The current rules state that electronic scorsheets are permissable when approved by the regional director. BUT, there is a problem other than "lost scores" - that of the shooter who honestly and sincerely believes he did not have a miss, procedural, etc. on a stage. NOTHING beats showing the shooter his initials on a scoresheet.

As to batteries - Palms are designed to retain data for a considerable period of time after the battery is so low as to render the display unreadable, and then allows for a change without data loss. You still need to be prepared for a hardware failure, but you're not going to lose data due to unexpected battery loss on a Palm. When we did A7 and the Infinity, we used Palms which take AAA batteries, and the "score runner" checked batteries at each pickup. We planned on replacing any < 50% full, but none ever got that low.

Regarding stats - there is a real benefit in not having to keep a bunch of people huddled behind PCs throughout the match. In fact, we did not want to run the generator continuously at the Infinity, so the single laptop used to score the match was powered off at least half the time. The big labor issue was supporting new-to-Palm RO's. If the RO's were all experienced Palm users, I could have done stats for either match by myself, and still had time to hang out at the ranges. (Note that I used the term "single laptop" in connection with scoring a 10 stage, 200 shooter match in real time).

Vince touches on on accuracy issue (correct # of hits). The other is data transfer - the score you get WILL be the score you accept on the Palm - no chance of "user error" on data entry, and no need to a "manual verification cycle" or "double score entry" system.

Vice is right about "knowing limitations." I think Palm scoring is great but, at this point I insist on two things for a major match:

(1) A paper log of scores

(2) A "standby" supply of paper scoresheets "just in case"

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

I think we can safely put you in the "anti" column on this.

[Rob Boudrie]

At present, the USPSA and IPSC Palm options differ:

USPSA: Use a utility program to import Palm scores into the official (in the US region) scoring program, soon to be upgraded to an internal EzWinScore import feature.

IPSC: No electronic transfer exists, however, one could use the "Match Magic" excell based scoring program offered by the Auto Scoring people. Although this is nicely done, it's not the same as using the "official" program. At this time, there are no specific MSS/Palm integration plans, however, the file formats used by the present (and future) USPSA<=> Palm transfer utility are "Tab Separated ASCII", so MSS *could* add support if IPSC chose to do so.

I think Palm scoring can work well when there is an integration with the official scoring program, but I would be hesitant to use Palms at any match where the scores did not end up in EzWinScore (or MSS for a world body match). In fact, I said the same thing to the Palm scoring people which is how the EzWinScore transfer utility was born.

We also had one visionary at Area 7 - club president Greg Newman. At the time I was hoping to score a couple stages with the Palms, Greg was telling me "we can do them all - go for it" ... and, he was proven right.

The only question which remains is "Will Horus offer a version of their scope which comes with 'software only' for the Palm, so you don't have to buy a new one to get their system?"

[Paradox]

LoL!

Sorry guys, my intent was not to start a flame war (PPC vs. Palm). Reminds me of the age long debate of Mac Vs. Windows Vs. Unix... Bottom line is that they all have their uses, in the right applications.

/GeekModeOn

I don't use Unix to serve windows clients, nor do I use my Palm anymore. I happen to use PPC because it integrates nicely for MY uses As far as the consumer market goes... Palm was one of the first names in mobile devices, and I feel most people are going to stick with the 'in name'. For ME, I use PPC because good, bad or ugly, it comes with applications that I already use - Outlook, Excel, Word, Media Player...

/GeekModeOff

Yes, I can develop an application to do the same thing for a PPC (Visual Studio). I would rather not reinvent the wheel and hoped to find an application off the shelf. The simplest solution would be to use a spreadsheet in excel, however it doesn't scale well (as previously mentioned).

My desires were not to run the World Shoot, but to give instant results for local matches. There are usually less than 20 participants. I would still use a traditional paper trail. I can think of many uses for an electronic scoring system, but unfortunately they do cost money... Just like the my $2000.00 limited blaster, $160.00 holster, boatload of ammo components, and other shooting accessories weren't given away. I had/have just as much fun shooting my Glock, $20 holster, and white box factory ammo... but that is another story haha! I like to shoot, just trying to spend more time doing it

Thanks for the comments, I will check out the ideas posted thus far.

Justin

[Flexmoney]

Justin,

Maybe all you need is to tally up the Alpha thru Delta hits...and the penalties. Keep the paper trail...but, supplement with the spreadsheet?

[lynn jones]

from peter cunningham

I have twice logged in (Brian Enos confirmed that was OK) and twice been rejected from being able to add comment to this topic thus "Sorry, you do not have permission to reply to that topic" and that I am "Unauthorised to respond" etc.I have asked Lynn Jones to pass it on. This might be a technical problem because the same problem happens on all threads.

Well! - Palm Scoring is a reality, and strangely it really does work! I say that because misinformation clouds fact.

If anybody wants to have a peek at it and download a trial version, then go to: www.autoscoringsystems.com and sniff around, but don't be in a hurry - later next week the FINAL program will be available there.

I strongly suggest going to the end and read the two links to USER COMMENTS, where on the Australian IPSC website, I saved the topic so that other shooters could see what other shooters think.

YES - Palm scoring was successfully used in two major matches last year - The Area 7 championship and the Infinity Open. It is commonly used here and in Papua New Guinea and New Zealand.

NO - It is not available on other than the Palm OS - one day it might be but the costs involved are simply overwhelming. FAR easier to keep your good PDA for work (whatever) and go buy an old Palm 3xe for about $65 and keep it in your range bag.

YES - It is true that shooters become more involved in any match when they use their palms to manage their scores. It's really a thrill to see INSTANTLY who is where. Just ask the RO with a Palm to beam your scores, or your squads scores (takes about three seconds) and progressively collect your scores and run your own mini match where instant results are a reality. Any PIN secured scores provide yet another backup of match data, so that if something dies it's easy to fix.

Perhaps one day my original dream will be realised - where all practical shooters everywhere can use it for $5 per annum via an annual membership levy, instead of a few paying 'a lot'. Luckily, desite the initial cost, there has been very good response and NO complaints, but that has been the slow and most costly way to introduce it.

ANYWAY - I don't want to turn this into an advertisement - suffice to say - TRY IT.

If you don't have a palm - FEAR NOT - just download the manual "5 - SCREENS.zip" and read it. If you want to see how Match Magic handles the output files on your PC, just download a trial match and go play.

GOTTAGO.

Peter Cunningham

BE HAPPY and I part with words from one more capable than I:

"...So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrranize will do so; For tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men." -- Voltarine de Cleyre."

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[Vince Pinto]

... misinformation clouds fact ...... there has been very good response and NO complaints ....

We need more emoticons .....