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Thoughts on legality etc


molson

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I am interested in the Benos universe opinions on this stage situation.

3 Pepper Poppers

11 Metirc targets

25 rounds total

The 3 Pepper Poppers are spaced between 3 and 5 feet apart directly in the center

backstop of the shooting bay. Slightly right of center, behind the center pepper

popper, a single metric target. About 9 to 12 feet off center, are 2 more metric

targets, one on each side, roughly in line or so with the pepper poppers. About

4 or 5 feet forward of these poppers (walking backward), 1 metric on each side.

Again, 5 or 6 feet in front of these targets (again walking backward) are 1 more

metric targets on each side. Let us do this one more time, 7 or 8 feet in front

of that set of targets, 1 more metric on each side. All these targets are outside

of a shooting box. The shooting box continues to a platform at the front of the

bay with a target on each side. I hope this setup description makes sense.

Written stage description. Starting with both hands on center pepper popper, engage

targets as they become visible from within the fault lines. Steel must fall to score,

Comstock scoring, 125 points. Poppers must be engaged from shooting platform. This

is required because of rule 2.1.3. Good to go.

Obviously, this as written is going to require shooting while moving backward. Rainy

day, ground is wet, but oh well, there it is. Also, the shooting platform is made

of wood and can be slippery. We will need to deal with it.

Talking to a super squad member(our clubs supper squad, not the nationally recognized

super squad members), he was going to push the popper over and shoot the stage.

Sounds reasonable to me as I had not read the stage description. I will keep

this in mind as I am not on his squad and I will be several stages behind him.

1st squad to shoot this is the super squad with the match director and stage designer

as the CRO. He is also a certified CRO. They shoot the stage and move on. My squad

(the second squad) comes along to shoot this stage. First 2 shooters go through and

shoot it as written. One of the super squad members comes over and tells us that the

time to beat is xx and they pushed the popper over at the starting beep, and proceeded

to shoot the stage. No FTE, no mike, no range failure, no procedural, etc.

In my opinion, this is not legal and decide to talk to the MD. He pulls out the rule

about being a level one match (he does this a lot) and it was perfectly within the rules.

I suggest that I believe that the coarse of fire as written required the popper must be

shot, and must be shot from the platform . If it was not required to be shot, then the

pepper popper count should have been stated as 2, the minimum round count should have

been 24, with 120 points total, and it should have been stated to push the popper over

before engaging targets. He disagreed.

What say you? Did they have a legitimate loophole?

Moderators please move if this is not the correct forum please.

Cheers!

molson

P.S. when I was leaving, it looked like they were all re-shooting the stage. Maybe I was

right and the ro's on that squad agreed with me.

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That's a really simple call -- if it's a target and it wasn't engaged, it's a miss and a procedural for failure to engage.

It's really a dopey idea though. We've done similar things in order to activate movers (On the start signal knock over the popper, draw, and....) but we didn't count a knock down popper as a target....

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4.3.1.5 - Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. ...

Hence - I would score 1 miss, 1 FTE.

Also, I question how many targets you could see once you got to the end of the CoF ... Was it more than 8 rounds? Yeah, I know ... Level I. But still, the only leeway I can actually find is that you may use boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged. I see nothing which indicates you can ignore the 8 rounds from one position rules. (Or have I misplaced that rule somewhere at this late hour!!???)

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4.3.1.5 - Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. ...

Hence - I would score 1 miss, 1 FTE.

Also, I question how many targets you could see once you got to the end of the CoF ... Was it more than 8 rounds? Yeah, I know ... Level I. But still, the only leeway I can actually find is that you may use boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged. I see nothing which indicates you can ignore the 8 rounds from one position rules. (Or have I misplaced that rule somewhere at this late hour!!???)

Mike,

If I understand it correctly:

You shouldn't be able to shoot the whole thing from one position -- unless it's a short course. You shouldn't have more than eight required shots from any position....

I like options so that any competitor can find a way. That typically means not designing in blocks of 6 or 8, but rather changing things up. 10 or 12 at the end is acceptable, as long as at least some of those targets may also be engaged from someplace else....

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You shouldn't have more than eight required shots from any position....

Just a reminder to those playing along at home that you can require up to 16 rounds from a single position now, but not in a course of fire like this (Long Course). The new "Speed Shoot" course of fire option put into effect March 1 allows it but under different circumstances.

New rule 1.2.2.3

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

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P.S. when I was leaving, it looked like they were all re-shooting the stage. Maybe I was

right and the ro's on that squad agreed with me.

I have to wonder what rule was used to justify the reshoot (if it indeed took place).

There was no REF.... the start position was correct....

:ph34r:

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P.S. when I was leaving, it looked like they were all re-shooting the stage. Maybe I was

right and the ro's on that squad agreed with me.

I have to wonder what rule was used to justify the reshoot (if it indeed took place).

There was no REF.... the start position was correct....

:ph34r:

RO interference, by approving an illegal plan during the walkthrough? I know -- it's a reach..... :P

More likely -- we can't remember who ran it which way, therefore we can't retroactively score it correctly for the entire squad....

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Steel falling, without being shot, for score, is REF... Despite it being a deliberate move, pushed by hand, or natural influence as if it fell from the wind. As it fell, it can not be shot to score, it's a Range Equipment Failure and a reshoot is in order. That's how I'd see it, but I'm sure we could start making a case for the rules in section 2.3, modifications to the course of fire, and come up with a scenario requiring competitors who shot it under the understanding pushing steel over to score is permitted.

Edited by aztecdriver
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RO interference, by approving an illegal plan during the walkthrough? I know -- it's a reach..... :P

More likely -- we can't remember who ran it which way, therefore we can't retroactively score it correctly for the entire squad....

I don't think the RO interfered. We (mostly) shoot freestyle. Pick your poison, pay the penalties.

Your second possibility is likely, however wouldn't it have been more correct for all those shooters to have their run stand and their scoresheets changed for One procedural (FTE) and One Mike per 9.7.4 (mutual consent)? If the whole squad did it, it would have been easy. By reshooting, they got a bye.

:cheers:

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Steel falling, without being shot, for score, is REF... Despite it being a deliberate move, pushed by hand, or natural influence as if it fell from the wind. As it fell, it can not be shot to score, it's a Range Equipment Failure and a reshoot is in order. That's how I'd see it, but I'm sure we could start making a case for the rules in section 2.3, modifications to the course of fire, and come up with a scenario requiring competitors who shot it under the understanding pushing steel over to score is permitted.

So does this mean that if I bag up a Stage I can leave the last popper standing, walk over and kick it down and claim REF?? I know that's a stretch, but........

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RO interference, by approving an illegal plan during the walkthrough? I know -- it's a reach..... :P

More likely -- we can't remember who ran it which way, therefore we can't retroactively score it correctly for the entire squad....

I don't think the RO interfered. We (mostly) shoot freestyle. Pick your poison, pay the penalties.

Your second possibility is likely, however wouldn't it have been more correct for all those shooters to have their run stand and their scoresheets changed for One procedural (FTE) and One Mike per 9.7.4 (mutual consent)? If the whole squad did it, it would have been easy. By reshooting, they got a bye.

:cheers:

If the whole squad did it, sure.....

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All,

Thank you all for your very insightful comments. Before approaching the MD, I discussed

some of the very points brought up in this discussion with others on my squad. The short coarse

rule was never one of them and because of this discussion, this will now be factored into

any future discussions that I take up with coarse legality and layout. I am very glad that I

brought this to the forum. Not only did typing it out to post help me think it out further,

I think it will help others if this should ever come up for them. I love that.

In my original post I felt that according to the rule book, AND the stage description, that

the steel must fall to score, AND it must be shot to fall. I did indeed point this fact out

to the MD. That was when he pulled the level one exemption out. Now, myself, I am not a rule

book lawyer, but I do understand the need for the level one exemption. I have pointed out many

times, as well as others, that this exemption should be kept to a minimum, and only used when

there is a compelling reason. This did not fit that, as it was a scoring issue.

To answer the reason for the re-shoot, I think it was because the entire squad shot the coarse

incorrectly. As pointed out, it was probably appropriate to just issue a failure to engage and

a FTE. If I was the MD, that is what I would have done. But, and I would bet that it would have

been argued by at least 3 or 4 of them, that they placed enough shots down range, and put one shot

over the fallen steel to not deserve the FTE, only the Mike. This was the well known loophole

finding squad at these matches after all.

I must point out that this club is usually if not always a lot of fun to shoot at. The MD comes

up with some very interesting stages with the limited space available. If it was not for his

dedication and desire to hold matches, it is possible that this club would evaporate. Problem is

that ever since the exemption was placed in the rule book, or maybe it has just been the last

couple of years, stages and procedures described for shooting the stages have been getting stretched

outside of the rules slightly. I as well as others have been working the angle to get it back under

the rule book, and this event being discussed was the second time that day that somebody pointed out

rule / layout violations. We will get it squared away as we help out in every way possible. Another

side note is that at least 2 competitors have stated that they may need to stop showing up for this

match. I am sure I was able to reason with them and convince them that they need to keep coming as we

will get this worked out. Also, classifiers are by the book.

Thank you all for reading and commenting. Also, for making me feel better about even challenging

the way it was being shot and scored.

Cheers!

molson

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Steel falling, without being shot, for score, is REF... Despite it being a deliberate move, pushed by hand, or natural influence as if it fell from the wind. As it fell, it can not be shot to score, it's a Range Equipment Failure and a reshoot is in order. That's how I'd see it, but I'm sure we could start making a case for the rules in section 2.3, modifications to the course of fire, and come up with a scenario requiring competitors who shot it under the understanding pushing steel over to score is permitted.

So does this mean that if I bag up a Stage I can leave the last popper standing, walk over and kick it down and claim REF?? I know that's a stretch, but........

Let's think about this - I think the concept of starting with your hands on the popper is unique, kind of inventive, but for the very concern it creates, don't think I would design a stage that does it. First of all - I want half wall at 23ft in front of poppers on my stages. Secondly, what happens when someone hears the "beep" and turns to haul to that end position where he can see all of the targets and his thumb accidentally pushes just a little too hard as he leaves. The popper now goes over unintentionally, and what do you have? A reshoot. If it's pushed over on purpose because it's there - then the 4.5.1 comes out as it should still count the run and remove the advantage with the procedural.

If an intentional move like that is attempted to try and get a reshoot - i'm pulling out 10.6.1 for that. It's dishonest and cheating.

If I'm missing something about the discussion - let me know because I just dug a trench and 550 lbs of concrete. Some of you might do this on a regular basis, but I sell software for a living. I'm beat ;)

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I doubt I would issue a reshoot. It is not, IMO, REF. The shooter caused the popper to fall ... It is his fault it is no longer available for him to engage. I would score 1 M, 1 FTE.

Although we are talking about HG rules here, a similar situation exists in MG ... If the shooter shoots a steel or frangible target with the wrong gun, then does not have it available with the correct gun later, there is no REF and no reshoot. The score is 1 M, 1 FTE. (MG 9.3) Although it is not spelled out in the HG rules, I would contend the same underlying logic should apply ... Outside forces did not act upon the target ... The shooter caused it to fall therefore it is his fault, not REF, and no reshoot.

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I doubt I would issue a reshoot. It is not, IMO, REF. The shooter caused the popper to fall ... It is his fault it is no longer available for him to engage. I would score 1 M, 1 FTE.

Although we are talking about HG rules here, a similar situation exists in MG ... If the shooter shoots a steel or frangible target with the wrong gun, then does not have it available with the correct gun later, there is no REF and no reshoot. The score is 1 M, 1 FTE. (MG 9.3) Although it is not spelled out in the HG rules, I would contend the same underlying logic should apply ... Outside forces did not act upon the target ... The shooter caused it to fall therefore it is his fault, not REF, and no reshoot.

This is exactly why I think this type of stage is just inviting problems. I just looked for a rule to support your scoring of that scenario, and I can not find one. The only rules that I have been able to find are

4.6.1 that states: Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

4.6.2 A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to range equipment failure, or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of fire after corrective actions have been taken.

4.6.3 Chronic malfunction of equipment in a course of fire may result in the removal of that stage from the match results (see Rule 2.3.4).

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

4.5.2 The competitor may request that Match Officials take corrective actions to ensure consistency in respect of the range surface, the presentation of targets and/or any other matter. The Range Master will have final authority concerning all such requests.

The scenario that I suggest, the competitor disrupts the popper accidentally as they are leaving the start position with hands touching the target and it inadvertently falls, according to how I read the rules, the target was prematurely activated. It doesn't say by whom or what. It also starts to become subjective if you believe the competitor did it inadvertently or on purpose - another reason I don't like the competitor touching a target for a start position. I was considering something like writing something into the WSB to force the competitor to reset the popper if they bump it down but that makes no sense, because now we compound it with things like challenges of calibration with the competitor setting his own targets during the COF.

Again, I'm just looking for the rule to support the scoring, 1M 1FTE with the target not being presented to be shot because of shooter action. I hope I never see a start position like this. If the popper is touchy and falls easily and I get scored that way, I'd probably file an arb and have the stage tossed under 4.6.3. I can appreciate the MG rules for what they need to deal with, unfortunately I don't believe the scenario to be relevant. The unavailability was the result of a direct mistake of engagement, and there is a rule to support the penalty. If you have one to support the M/FTE here - please help me out.

Thanks!

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I only once recall a stage where I had to start holding a Popper ... Actually, it was a Rifle stage. The Popper was non-scoring, but as soon as you let it go it fell activating an out-and-back target up close and a runner about 100 yards downrange. After "dropping" the Popper (again, non-scoring) you had to pick up your rifle and engage the close-in out-and-back while you could, then deal with the 100 yard running target. It was a hoot!

I agree, I dislike the situation you mention. However, I am FAR more concerned with the safety aspects of starting with your hands on a scoring steel target the HOPING you get all the way back to the propper spot BEFORE you engage it!

As to a rule - I suppose I would consider it the same as the situation where someone suggested leaving a Popper for last, then NOT shooting it, but rather going up to it and kicking it over. I would score that as a FTE (unless it WAS shot at) and a Miss. If no FTE, I might get creative and state the shooter was not in the proper shooting area when he kicked the Popper over (a Procedural) and still score the Miss. Sorry, but I look at it as the punishment fitting the crime, so to speak. If the shooter wants to get so creative as to kick or push the Popper over rather than shoot it, I think he has little room to argue when I get a little creative and apply a penalty for so doing. You simply cannot write rules to cover EVERYTHING!

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I only once recall a stage where I had to start holding a Popper ... Actually, it was a Rifle stage. The Popper was non-scoring, but as soon as you let it go it fell activating an out-and-back target up close and a runner about 100 yards downrange. After "dropping" the Popper (again, non-scoring) you had to pick up your rifle and engage the close-in out-and-back while you could, then deal with the 100 yard running target. It was a hoot!

MG sounds like a blast - I really am anxious to get into a position to learn how to shoot these.

I agree, I dislike the situation you mention. However, I am FAR more concerned with the safety aspects of starting with your hands on a scoring steel target the HOPING you get all the way back to the propper spot BEFORE you engage it!

That's the MAIN reason if I see a stage like this before a match, I'm grabbing the MD and having a word. The reason I have a concern for accidentally falling poppers is some of our gear has to be set real light, and I've seen it where removing your hand after resetting must be done delicately or the thing falls right back over. I couldn't imagine using one of those as a hands on start. So - I guess I'll just have to agree not to.

As to a rule - I suppose I would consider it the same as the situation where someone suggested leaving a Popper for last, then NOT shooting it, but rather going up to it and kicking it over. I would score that as a FTE (unless it WAS shot at) and a Miss. If no FTE, I might get creative and state the shooter was not in the proper shooting area when he kicked the Popper over (a Procedural) and still score the Miss. Sorry, but I look at it as the punishment fitting the crime, so to speak. If the shooter wants to get so creative as to kick or push the Popper over rather than shoot it, I think he has little room to argue when I get a little creative and apply a penalty for so doing. You simply cannot write rules to cover EVERYTHING!

Agreed - but having a light popper go down because of released tension on the hand is a far cry from kicking the stupid thing over to try and get a reshoot. Agreed, the intentional interference of the target should be scored as such. 1M/1FTE - they deliberately removed the target from play. I agree that you can't write rules for everything, but if you are going to mark a procedural, you have to be prepared to quote the rule for it - that's my concern. I'm in this to learn it - so if you and I score this differently - there is something to be learned.

This one should already do it:

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.

:cheers:

Hey George, thanks for responding. My issue is this - and it's a simple one. I get it - it's on the ground, but it hasn't been shot. It can NOT be scored as a hit. Now the question is under what rule does it get scored as a M/FTE. The only rule that I see that applies is 4.6.1 and 4.6.2 Every other scenario of a metal target being on the ground and NOT hit by a round requires a reshoot. Wind, a metal plate stand that gets struck be a missed shot is REF. I'm not talking about the deliberate action of a shooter. I'm talking about an unintentional action. I'm with both of you on deliberate actions, but I think the penalty is pretty stiff -25 for a popper that won't stay upright because of a finger touch and this is what both my hands have to be on to start.

I'll give up and call it irreconcilable differences if we can't get further. I'll beat up any MD's that put one of these in front of me. No starts touching a scoring target, ever.

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Hey George, thanks for responding. My issue is this - and it's a simple one. I get it - it's on the ground, but it hasn't been shot. It can NOT be scored as a hit. Now the question is under what rule does it get scored as a M/FTE. The only rule that I see that applies is 4.6.1 and 4.6.2 Every other scenario of a metal target being on the ground and NOT hit by a round requires a reshoot. Wind, a metal plate stand that gets struck be a missed shot is REF. I'm not talking about the deliberate action of a shooter. I'm talking about an unintentional action. I'm with both of you on deliberate actions, but I think the penalty is pretty stiff -25 for a popper that won't stay upright because of a finger touch and this is what both my hands have to be on to start.

I'll give up and call it irreconcilable differences if we can't get further. I'll beat up any MD's that put one of these in front of me. No starts touching a scoring target, ever.

We already know and accept that the rulebook can't cover every single possible scenario. Yours certainly falls into that category. I agree competely that this was a case of problematic stage design, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the potential for the (starting position) popper to drop, no longer being available as a target.

In the case where the shooter purposely pushed the popper over after the start signal (such as was originally described), I would not call REF. I realize it is a gray area in the rulebook, but it didn't malfunction. It did not activate prematurely since IMO (and my opinion only) this situation was purposely created by the shooter, and for which the appropriate penalties (FTE, 2 Mikes) should be applied.

In the case where the popper was unintentionally dropped (such as you describe), then I would call REF since it was not designed to do that and the shooter did not purposely drop it. In this case, it is no different than a door/port which falls off when opened, etc.

But the fundamental problem here is an impractical stage design. There's a reason some otherwise "innovative" stage designs are not commonly seen - they are simply not workable. Too many scoring issues, or perhaps safety concerns.

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I am interested in the Benos universe opinions on this stage situation.

3 Pepper Poppers

11 Metirc targets

25 rounds total

The 3 Pepper Poppers are spaced between 3 and 5 feet apart directly in the center

backstop of the shooting bay. Slightly right of center, behind the center pepper

popper, a single metric target. About 9 to 12 feet off center, are 2 more metric

targets, one on each side, roughly in line or so with the pepper poppers. About

4 or 5 feet forward of these poppers (walking backward), 1 metric on each side.

Again, 5 or 6 feet in front of these targets (again walking backward) are 1 more

metric targets on each side. Let us do this one more time, 7 or 8 feet in front

of that set of targets, 1 more metric on each side. All these targets are outside

of a shooting box. The shooting box continues to a platform at the front of the

bay with a target on each side. I hope this setup description makes sense.

Written stage description. Starting with both hands on center pepper popper, engage

targets as they become visible from within the fault lines. Steel must fall to score,

Comstock scoring, 125 points. Poppers must be engaged from shooting platform. This

is required because of rule 2.1.3. Good to go.

Obviously, this as written is going to require shooting while moving backward. Rainy

day, ground is wet, but oh well, there it is. Also, the shooting platform is made

of wood and can be slippery. We will need to deal with it.

Talking to a super squad member(our clubs supper squad, not the nationally recognized

super squad members), he was going to push the popper over and shoot the stage.

Sounds reasonable to me as I had not read the stage description. I will keep

this in mind as I am not on his squad and I will be several stages behind him.

1st squad to shoot this is the super squad with the match director and stage designer

as the CRO. He is also a certified CRO. They shoot the stage and move on. My squad

(the second squad) comes along to shoot this stage. First 2 shooters go through and

shoot it as written. One of the super squad members comes over and tells us that the

time to beat is xx and they pushed the popper over at the starting beep, and proceeded

to shoot the stage. No FTE, no mike, no range failure, no procedural, etc.

In my opinion, this is not legal and decide to talk to the MD. He pulls out the rule

about being a level one match (he does this a lot) and it was perfectly within the rules.

I suggest that I believe that the coarse of fire as written required the popper must be

shot, and must be shot from the platform . If it was not required to be shot, then the

pepper popper count should have been stated as 2, the minimum round count should have

been 24, with 120 points total, and it should have been stated to push the popper over

before engaging targets. He disagreed.

What say you? Did they have a legitimate loophole?

Moderators please move if this is not the correct forum please.

Cheers!

molson

P.S. when I was leaving, it looked like they were all re-shooting the stage. Maybe I was

right and the ro's on that squad agreed with me.

Hmmn, I can't say who exactly came up with pushing the popper over but I think it was the MD.

I shot last on the "super" squad and here's how it went down and to clarify I showed up late as usual and didn't get to hear if there was actually a discussion about the legality of such an action or who started it and for what reason.

Yes, the MD screwed up by not following the rules and allowing the popper to be pushed over and counted for score.

All I can say is that the MD is known for not always following the rules but as the saying goes it's hard to find good help these days. It's hard to find help in any form.

However, did Molson respond in the proper way after finding the error, not exactly...

I was walking back to the MD to see how his pistol repair was going(another thing he's know for having to do) and I hear "I'm never coming back here again if they don't get a penalty or reshoot" in a rather upset and loud voice.

Yes, we've all been upset, said things we shouldn't have, etc. I've done it more times than I can remember.....so I sorta understand where Molson's head was but I think all it would've taken is a look in the rulebook to show the MD/squad without all the yelling and hard feelings.

It's great that Molson know's the rules well and called the MD on it but to explode like that is a little overboard.

I've gotten use to shooting "abnormal" stages over the years at these local clubs since it's just for fun/practice anyways so it was surprising to hear such heated discussion at this match of 14 shooters over something like this.

I guess some(probably all other)shooters take local matches much more seriously than I do.

So to sum things up the stage was reshot per Molson's request and because nobody really minded shooting it again except for one guy that had to go I think...

Was it legal for the reshoot? No, probly not but I don't think you can fault the whole squad for something the guy running the match said was OK to do. When I shot I was told that pushing the popper over was required and since I didn't read the course description, nothing seemed unusual.

It would be great if that MD followed the rules better but he just trys to come up with stages that he thinks are interesting.

I think it's Lucky for that club he just loves to shoot and is willing to MD that monthly match year after year plus a benefit match for a local charity.

Sometimes the rules and/or the shooters need to give the people running these matches a break.

After all there isn't a prize table or even awards to worry about.

And somebody want to tell me why this same club can get 50 shooters to come to an IDPA match but only half that shows up for the USPSA matches?

I don't shoot IDPA. I think it sucks you know what so what gives????

What is USPSA doing wrong???

Nick

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