Back to back stages

[Phil Dunlop]

I've shot many matches where 2 stages are set up on the same range and the competitor is required to shoot one immeadiately after another.

Thankfully I have never been troubled doing this, but I have seen a lot of shooters making major, costly mistakes, often involving empty chambers and or mags.

I don't think the extra stress makes for a fair competition, particularly at major matches, and I'd be keen to hear what other users think of the practice.

Thanks, P.D.

[Flexmoney]

I don't care for it.  

And, it is likley slower than running two seperate squads (if you have to have two stages share a bay).

I agree with you Phil...lots of shooters end up making mistakes.  It ends up being a test of saftey...or memory...or something.  Seems to get in the way of testing the shooting.

[Jake Di Vita]

That was how the IDPA Nats were run this year. I didn't really care for it either. My Father ended up starting a hoser stage with an empty gun. I don't mind ranges being ran hot, but I don't really agree with shooting back to back stages.

[Phil Dunlop]

At bigger matches I am always amazed at some of the responses to a simple 'Hi'

Often times guys that have travelled a whole day to get there will greet you with 'how many more to go' or beaming, 'just one left...you?'

Match organisers seem to push the envelope to get the round count up, which is said to attract more shooters, shooters rushing to get finished and have a beer, and so we end up with 2 day, 20stage, 300+ (this is IPSC not USPSA) matches which always require a couple of back to back stages.

What I'm saying is that to satisfy the percieved demands of shooters, shooters keen as to get home, we risk compromising the integrity of the result.

Just ramblin'

P.D.

[j1b]

I personally like back to back stages. There are of course advantages and disadvantages but in the end - from purely a shooting aspect (not accouting for time to run stage etc. etc.) - I enjoy them. I definitly think they should be run hot.

I agree with what you guys are saying but I also feel like the psychological effect of doing it plays into the match. It is another way to present a challenge. Really I look at every stage and ask "what are they doing on this stage that is trying to distract me from the shooting" Once you pull that out then it is SO much easier to punch through a stage because you take that component out, account for it, and move on.

That said I like the "extra" that having two stages run back to back does. I also try and capitalize on the advantages - like less nerves, more presence of mind, and getting a few rounds through the gun on stage one prior to hitting stage two. Assuming I've done some thorough research on both stages - it should provide a great opportunity to smoke stage two. If I have a mental relapse and don't load the gun etc. etc. - then that's my fault and I feel like I should be penalized for it.

I think your question is awesome. I can't wait to read the responses.

JB

[ErikW]

Just did this at the Infinity Open. I and others unloaded by habit then had to re-LAMR at the second stage. There are many disadvantages to the shooter...

- can't/won't do practice draw and sight picture with a loaded gun

- gun may be at lower capacity, including empty chamber

- might not be enough magazines or spares on belt

- might have put not-full magazines back on belt

- might have locked holster walking to the next stage and forgot to unlock

- must mentally prepare for two completely different stages

At Vegas the first of the back-to-back stages was one of my best, the second was one of my worst.

All you are saving with hot back-to-backs is LAMR draw/sight picture time. And maybe not even that if the shooter needs more time to mentally rehearse the second stage.

You know what would be better, and I've seen it done, is to alternate shooters. Shooter A shoots stage one, clears. Shooter B shoots stage one, clears. ROs score stages one and two. Shooter C, Shooter D, score, repeat... Once through the squad, Shooter B shoots stage one, clears, Shooter A shoots stage two, clears. And so on.

[Jake Di Vita]

"You know what would be better, and I've seen it done, is to alternate shooters. Shooter A shoots stage one, clears. Shooter B shoots stage one, clears. ROs score stages one and two. Shooter C, Shooter D, score, repeat... Once through the squad, Shooter B shoots stage one, clears, Shooter A shoots stage two, clears. And so on."

I agree with this completely. This was done at one bay at the nats, and it all ran really smoothly. If you are going to run two stages back to back, this is the way to do it.

[Steve Anderson]

Are you not allowed to check the pistol before stage 2?

Or is one LAMR given for the whole thing?

Most I've done locally will show clear, and go next door for a new lamr.

I don't really care, but I practice with a hot range, and am used to starting with less than a full mag. Keeps one on one's toes...

Just a different challenge, a memory stage in itself.

I like the comment about figuring what's designed to distract, then just ignoring it. Gonna put that in the mental bag o' tricks.

SA

[Nik Habicht]

At the IDPA Winter Nationals the first three stages share the public range at the Smith & Wesson Training Center.  They run three shooters (from the same squad) through the three stages, then clear the range and score and tape.  The shooter on Stage 1 shoots first, then stage 2, and finally stage three.  If you just shot stage 1, then after the scoring you're shooting on two, and once two is scored you shoot stage three.   That gives you a couple of minutes to load mags and re-group but it's still mentally demanding to shoot so quickly through three stages.  I always enjoy that bay.

[Duane Thomas]

I shot a back-to-back stage this past weekend. Since I pretty much smoked both of them I can't complain. I don't see the big deal. When they tell you, "Reload for the next stage," at the end of Stage 1, you just pop the partially depleted mag out of the gun, insert a full mag, make sure it's seated, do a chamber check and holster, make sure the spares are loaded, and then move to the next stage. This all takes, what, 15, 20 seconds? No biggie. Nobody on my squad started the next stage with an empty or non-chamber loaded gun. It's just not that difficult a proposition.

[Flexmoney]

Remember guys...it's not too tough for most of us, we do this stuff most every weekend.  Not all of our shooters do.

[joshua]

I shot at the Infinity open and someone in my squad went to the next stage and had an empty chamber, I saw another shooter at the same stage tried to draw with a locked holster.  Hmmm.... call it brain fart or whatever but it's sure is hell for us mortals. =) josh

[BSeevers]

I don't have a problem with it. Its like starting a stage with your hands in a ice bucket(one of the stupidest stages I have shot) you deal with it and sometimes screw up. It just burns more because it before the shooting, not during it, so its BLARING. Still the same effect on your score, as running by a target and returning to shoot it. Its one of the challenges not one of the problems to be concerned about.

[jkmccoy]

I don't think I'd like big stages at a major match run like that. If I run into it I hope I just treat it as another challenge to get through so I can get to the shooting. But we do it occasionally at our local club match.

Usually we set five stages, but sometimes someone has ideas for a couple of little speed shoots. We set six stages total, set the two little speed shoots in one bay, and run the second one hot. Doesn't seem to cause any problem. It does save time and lets everyone get home at about the same time.

Cheers,