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Can you ban a shooter?


Fireant

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Drunk = safety violation. That one is easy. USPSA would never question it.

Unsportsmanlike conduct is dealt with by the rule book. A shooter can be DQed for that, and should be. I don't think that is grounds for bannage from a club, however, and I suspect that the USPSA would agree with me.

The USPSA expects us to welcome newbies, follow our rules, and deal with situations fairly. Banning someone for being a jerk doesn't reflect well on our sport. Banning someone for being drunk and wanting to fight is a totally different ball game.

Clubs are private enterprises and can ban anyone from their property --- right up to threatening the individual with a trespassing charge upon return. USPSA won't get into the middle of that. This isn't something done lightly, you've typically got to convince a Board of Directors that it's the right call.....

When the USPSA organization at the club makes that decision -- that's where notification to Sedro Woolley kicks in. I'd expect that's where Area Directors and Section Coordinators also get involved in the discussion....

I agree. You can ban whoever you want from your range if you own it. You can't, however, hold USPSA matches and not allow a card carrying member to shoot there without a good reason--thus the notification requirement.

Nobody is arguing that you don't have a right to your property. What you don't have a right to is using the USPSA's name and website to draw shooters to your club, and then not allowing its members to shoot there.

The point I'm making is that banning a card carrying USPSA member from a USPSA club without any justification seems problematic to me at the very least. There's no question that it could occur. The problem comes to life when a card-carrying member complains to the USPSA. Now, instead of the unsafe shooter, the club is in the hot seat for violating the USPSA's rules.

Property rights or not, by holding USPSA matches, you are submitting to the organization's regulations. Many private clubs open their doors to USPSA members ONLY for the purpose of shooting the match there. I've even asked at one of my (not so) local clubs if I could shoot there after the match with the rest of the club members, and was promptly told no (because it violated their club's rules to allow a guest to shoot there).

I can't think of any good, non safety-related reason why I'd even want to ban a shooter. And as a USPSA member, I like, enjoy, and exercise the fact that I can shoot at any affiliated club, because there are no clubs near me (none within 100 miles' driving distance) nor is there anywhere to create a local club. This is an important benefit to USPSA membership that I don't think any of us really want to see undermined.

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Drunk = safety violation. That one is easy. USPSA would never question it.

Unsportsmanlike conduct is dealt with by the rule book. A shooter can be DQed for that, and should be. I don't think that is grounds for bannage from a club, however, and I suspect that the USPSA would agree with me.

The USPSA expects us to welcome newbies, follow our rules, and deal with situations fairly. Banning someone for being a jerk doesn't reflect well on our sport. Banning someone for being drunk and wanting to fight is a totally different ball game.

Clubs are private enterprises and can ban anyone from their property --- right up to threatening the individual with a trespassing charge upon return. USPSA won't get into the middle of that. This isn't something done lightly, you've typically got to convince a Board of Directors that it's the right call.....

When the USPSA organization at the club makes that decision -- that's where notification to Sedro Woolley kicks in. I'd expect that's where Area Directors and Section Coordinators also get involved in the discussion....

I agree. You can ban whoever you want from your range if you own it. You can't, however, hold USPSA matches and not allow a card carrying member to shoot there without a good reason--thus the notification requirement.

Nobody is arguing that you don't have a right to your property. What you don't have a right to is using the USPSA's name and website to draw shooters to your club, and then not allowing its members to shoot there.

The point I'm making is that banning a card carrying USPSA member from a USPSA club without any justification seems problematic to me at the very least. There's no question that it could occur. The problem comes to life when a card-carrying member complains to the USPSA. Now, instead of the unsafe shooter, the club is in the hot seat for violating the USPSA's rules.

Property rights or not, by holding USPSA matches, you are submitting to the organization's regulations. Many private clubs open their doors to USPSA members ONLY for the purpose of shooting the match there. I've even asked at one of my (not so) local clubs if I could shoot there after the match with the rest of the club members, and was promptly told no (because it violated their club's rules to allow a guest to shoot there).

I can't think of any good, non safety-related reason why I'd even want to ban a shooter. And as a USPSA member, I like, enjoy, and exercise the fact that I can shoot at any affiliated club, because there are no clubs near me (none within 100 miles' driving distance) nor is there anywhere to create a local club. This is an important benefit to USPSA membership that I don't think any of us really want to see undermined.

Negative ghostrider. If my home club decides to ban one of its members from participation in USPSA matches, USPSA won't get involved -- even if that person is a USPSA member. They consider that an internal matter. By the same token, if the range owner (Private or BOD of a membership organization) decides to ban an individual USPSA member from the facility for any reason, USPSA won't get involved. (The match director isn't enforcing rule 6.4.4. in either of these situations -- so USPSA notification and involvement becomes moot.)

If a match director decides to ban a USPSA member under section 6.4. then there's an obligation to inform USPSA.....

A club does not surrender its USPSA Affiliation by exercising its property rights.....

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I can't think of any good, non safety-related reason why I'd even want to ban a shooter. And as a USPSA member, I like, enjoy, and exercise the fact that I can shoot at any affiliated club, because there are no clubs near me (none within 100 miles' driving distance) nor is there anywhere to create a local club. This is an important benefit to USPSA membership that I don't think any of us really want to see undermined.

I can think of many non-safety reasons to ban a shooter. Lets see .. the guy that makes the lady shooters uncomfortable and won't take a repeated hints from match directors to back the hell off, the guy (or gal I suppose) with that keeps making veiled racist comments and RO's shooters differently depending on their skin color, the guy who regularly scores his friends .. forgivingly, the 30something guy who throws a temper tantrum like that would embarrass the 12 year olds girls shooting the match over his own damn poor performance and then throwing his own equipment over the berms, etc. How about a guy that DQ'ed at every club around you and then shows up to your match and signs up with a fake name?

Now ... I've had to deal with some version of ALL of these issues, but none of them have gone as far as requiring me to ban the shooter. Usually a stern talking to behind the wood shed resolves those problems, but I can very much imagine circumstances where it wouldn't and where there isn't something as clear cut as repeated 180 violations to submit to USPSA. I think match directors have a responsibility to follow USPSA rules, follow local club rules, but ultimately their highest responsibility is to the shooters themselves and ensuring that they have a fun and safe time should be a primary consideration.

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I think all amateur sports benefit from a liberal banning policy. No one wants to spend their time off w. a jerk -- and this needs to be even more so around "dangerous" sports. (I don't think shooting is nearly as dangerous as most stick and ball sports, but it does have the potential to become so.) Jerks make people angry, and angry people make dumb mistakes. So far in shooting, almost everyone I've met has been quite nice - those that weren't were more socially awkward than deliberately unpleasant.

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Heard of one guy permabanned around here for getting mad and throwing a loaded handgun downrange. Some folks have no business shooting around other people.

We had this happen last year at our club. Not only did the offender get DQ'ed he was stripped of his membership at the club. I hope to never see that kind of thing but it is nice to know our club will back me up if I ever have to.

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I would submit that many of the situations described in the last 8-10 posts probably SHOULD be reported to USPSA if the individual is a USPSA member. If his behavior is bad enough at YOUR club to warrant ejection from the range, then USPSA may have a vested interest in stripping him of his credentials to compete at other ranges as well. Treating the problem as strictly an "in-house" situation merely passes the problem off to someone else's playground.

I'm not saying the club should automatically send a report to USPSA ... But they should automatically CONSIDER whether or not such a report should be sent, and CONSIDER the situation as a whole. However, remember that if the shooter is removed under 6.4.4, then the MD has a DUTY to report it to USPSA within 7 days regardless of what the club decides.

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Some of these issues would best be taken up with USPSA. USPSA can indeed (and has) revoked membership for life for safety violations. However, membership is not required to shoot at a Level One match. I have shot dozens of Level One matches with a shooter who was removed from the USPSA roles and he has never been a safety problem.

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Drunk = safety violation. That one is easy. USPSA would never question it.

Unsportsmanlike conduct is dealt with by the rule book. A shooter can be DQed for that, and should be. I don't think that is grounds for bannage from a club, however, and I suspect that the USPSA would agree with me.

The USPSA expects us to welcome newbies, follow our rules, and deal with situations fairly. Banning someone for being a jerk doesn't reflect well on our sport. Banning someone for being drunk and wanting to fight is a totally different ball game.

USPSA does want to welcome newbies. But we don't do that by allowing people to continue shooting with us who bring disrespect to the sport. In addition to the safety violations I wouldn't mind seeing someone banned for repeated violations of non safety violations. If someone wants to cheat, explain the first time that they are making a mistake, second time, goodbye. If someone wants to wear a Nazi uniform to shoot, first time the MD sends them home, second time goodbye. If someone is making life miserable for everyone else shooting the match, send them packing. A USPSA card does not grant you rights to violate rules, or take away the rights of everyone else to have a safe, fun shooting experience.

We've kicked two people off locally since I've been shooting. The first for repeated safety violations. He was banned from club property as well as Section Matches. He later proved us right by calling in a bomb threat during a match. (caught and prosecuted). He hasn't been back. The other ULASC, showed clear, saw a hit on a no shoot and got pissed off. He loaded back up and dumped a mag into the no shoot target. The RO (and I know this is bad technique) had already turned around and taken off his hearing protection. Serious anger control issues. He finally came back after almost 10 years shooting outside the section.

I know other clubs have banned folks for stealing from the club, excessive profanity (and anyone who knows me knows I don't have the cleanest mouth.) and other reasons.

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in some 21 yrs in this particular sport i have seen one person asked to leave the range for making threating remarks to another shooter, and one person who was basically banned(asked notto come back) because he DQ'd 4 times in 5 matches, the straw that broke the camel's back was a combo of him pulling out his gun while people were stilldownrange taping andsetting steel(he swears he heard LAMR) but to addto it, he went online and on a shootingforum called the local clubs 'elitists' and a few otherthings and named names....sorry...asta...our clubs didnt have a problem and neither did our section coordinater...

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