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M&P: Accurate Enough (with Factory Ammo)?

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Right now, when I'm not shooting a revolver, I shoot a CZ-75BD, which I really like. But I want to try something with a consistent trigger pull. Last weekend I rented an M&P9 and a Glock 17 and tried them back-to-back with my CZ for about 300 rounds to see which I liked better. I liked the feel of the M&P better. The grip angle is similar to my CZ. I'm a big fan of S&W customer service. But I shot them both about the same: about 4" freehand groups at 25 yards with three types of 115gr ammo, while I was getting about 1"-2.5" vertical strings with the CZ. However, while they both shot about the same, I found the stock Glock sights to be really lousy, whereas the M&P sights are OK. Also, I did a search and there seem to be a number of complaints about accuracy with the M&P. I'm thinking with some good sights, I might shoot the Glock a lot better, but there might not be anything I can do to improve the accuracy of the M&P. I only shoot factory ammo, so I would like to get something that shoots < 3" with factory. Do I get the M&P, and hope it shoots better than the rental, or do I get the Glock and suck up the ergonomics?

Also, I can get LE pricing on the Glock, which makes it about $100 cheaper than the M&P (including the rebate).

Thanks

Edited by sprout

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I just noticed, your poll asks if the M&P is accurate enough with factory ammo and the two choices you list are Glock and M&P....huh?

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Here's my .02

I'v had 3 friends who have had the M&P. It's a very comfortable gun to shoot but all 3 have tried tons of different ammo both reloads and factory and they just can't get a decent grouping. One guy returned his to S&W they put a new barrel in it and it came back a little better but not much. Another guy tried a after market barrel and it was a bit better as well. both guns are still no tighter than 4" at 25yds. The third friend just said screw it and sold it. All three had the 9mm. I'v heard the .40 is better but I don't have first hand on that. My vote is go Glock.

good luck in which ever you choose :)

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Big daddy: Thanks, I was afraid of that.

G-ManBart: I shot 5 round groups for all three. For the CZ the first was DA, the other 4 were SA. I wasn't shooting for speed, so the DA shot wasn't a problem, just slower.

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Here's my .02

I'v had 3 friends who have had the M&P. It's a very comfortable gun to shoot but all 3 have tried tons of different ammo both reloads and factory and they just can't get a decent grouping. One guy returned his to S&W they put a new barrel in it and it came back a little better but not much. Another guy tried a after market barrel and it was a bit better as well. both guns are still no tighter than 4" at 25yds. The third friend just said screw it and sold it. All three had the 9mm. I'v heard the .40 is better but I don't have first hand on that. My vote is go Glock.

good luck in which ever you choose :)

That's interesting because I've had far different results with mine, and I know some folks who have as well. I have seen very definite ammo preferences in my gun, and that has been reported by others as well. It doesn't seem to like Precision Delta 147gr FMJ-TCs at all. I can't get better than about 4.5" at 25yds with those. With Atlanta Arms 147gr Team Glock ammo (147gr JHPs) it'll do right around 1.25" at 25yds when I do my part. With my handloads using 147gr MG CMJ's I can get close, but maybe not quite to 1.25". On Sat I shot some groups with my M&P and those handloads at 15yds to confirm zero (had the rear sight off) and the best group was 1.05"...hard to complain with that. I've done less testing with 115s and 124s (both factory), but they're definitely good enough for something like 2.5" at 25yds from the bit I've seen.

Here's one of the first groups I shot with the AA&A ammo. It was shot indoors with poor lighting and a rolled up towel for wrist support. The bit of vertical stringing generally goes away when I can shoot outside and really see the sights well:

IMG_0006.jpg

Edited by G-ManBart

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Big daddy: Thanks, I was afraid of that.

G-ManBart: I shot 5 round groups for all three. For the CZ the first was DA, the other 4 were SA. I wasn't shooting for speed, so the DA shot wasn't a problem, just slower.

I've found that shooting groups with my M&P is more demanding than many other guns. I'm not sure why, but if I try a normal relaxed grip my groups are nowhere near as good (like double the size) compared to if I really grip the gun solidly. I don't have to work nearly as hard to shoot groups with a 1911. It's worth trying...can't hurt right.

I'd still say that shooting groups SA is easier than DA, even from a rest. If it didn't matter benchrest guns wouldn't need 4oz triggers :P

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Mine will whack the A-zone at 50 yards. That was good enough for me, especially with sights that have a pretty wide rear notch.

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Right now, when I'm not shooting a revolver, I shoot a CZ-75BD, which I really like. But I want to try something with a consistent trigger pull. Last weekend I rented an M&P9 and a Glock 17 and tried them back-to-back with my CZ for about 300 rounds to see which I liked better. I liked the feel of the M&P better. The grip angle is similar to my CZ. I'm a big fan of S&W customer service. But I shot them both about the same: about 4" freehand groups at 25 yards with three types of 115gr ammo, while I was getting about 1"-2.5" vertical strings with the CZ. However, while they both shot about the same, I found the stock Glock sights to be really lousy, whereas the M&P sights are OK. Also, I did a search and there seem to be a number of complaints about accuracy with the M&P. I'm thinking with some good sights, I might shoot the Glock a lot better, but there might not be anything I can do to improve the accuracy of the M&P. I only shoot factory ammo, so I would like to get something that shoots < 3" with factory. Do I get the M&P, and hope it shoots better than the rental, or do I get the Glock and suck up the ergonomics?

Also, I can get LE pricing on the Glock, which makes it about $100 cheaper than the M&P (including the rebate).

Thanks

Go to budspolicesupply.com. You can get LE discount on both. ;)

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Go to budspolicesupply.com. You can get LE discount on both. ;)

Yep, my Pro was $515 (with the credit card fee) from Buds...hope they get Pro .40s in soon. R,

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I have a 40 4.25, a 9 4.25 and a 9L, i must say i have not tryed to rest them but have shot out to 15+ yards to see how they shoot. It seems the 40 is more accurate with my handloads then either 9. I use 4.2 titegroup and mg 121gr at 1.115-1.118. it seems in USPSA and IDPA spot on accuracy is not a must although nice to have repeatable shots. I am able to make "a" zone head shots out to 10 + yards,and keep most in the a zone at other distances.I have shot alot with Glocks but not sure they are any better. The M&P does point better and feel better for me and accuracy is good enough for my game. I think with some trigger work it is more the ok..Go with your instinct and enjoy the run.

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Here's my .02

I'v had 3 friends who have had the M&P. It's a very comfortable gun to shoot but all 3 have tried tons of different ammo both reloads and factory and they just can't get a decent grouping. One guy returned his to S&W they put a new barrel in it and it came back a little better but not much. Another guy tried a after market barrel and it was a bit better as well. both guns are still no tighter than 4" at 25yds. The third friend just said screw it and sold it. All three had the 9mm. I'v heard the .40 is better but I don't have first hand on that. My vote is go Glock.

good luck in which ever you choose :)

I've been saying exactly what you said about my 357 Sig M&P on another thread about the accuracy and people think I'm nuts. I plan on doing the same and selling mine. By comparison the CZ 75B and CZ40P are the most accurate 9mm and 40 S&W guns I own. I played with the CZ 75B SP01 Shadow Target at the shot show and that will be my next purchase after selling the M&P.

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Dan Burwell (who happens to shoot and know a thing or two about M&P's) just won "most accurate" at the S&W IDPA Indoor Nationals.

I guess they do ok. "in the real world".

I've owned 2 M&P Pro's and one 9L. All 3 exhibited more than adequate accuracy for the games we play. Are they as accurate as custom 1911/2011's, Les Baers, CZ's .....NO, but I think "as a whole" they exhibit adequate accuracy. That's certainly not to say that one could not purchase a Lemon in any mfg.'s pistol.

Edited: For additional comments

Edited by Paul Burtchell

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Dan Burwell (who happens to shoot and know a thing or two about M&P's) just won "most accurate" at the S&W IDPA Indoor Nationals.

I guess they do ok. "in the real world".

I've owned 2 M&P Pro's and one 9L. All 3 exhibited more than adequate accuracy for the games we play. Are they as accurate as custom 1911/2011's, Les Baers, CZ's .....NO, but I think "as a whole" they exhibit adequate accuracy. That's certainly not to say that one could not purchase a Lemon in any mfg.'s pistol.

Edited: For additional comments

Thank you for that thought. I agree "Lemons" by manufacturers of anything do exist.

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yesterday I went to the range to ck out a new reload with my M&P 40, I was using 180 hollow point berry's over 231 powder. I shoot a group at 15 yards and held them all inside the x ring on 25 yard bulsey target and was able to make shoots on 8 inch plates at 35 to 40 yards. Like G-manbart was saying I noticed that I had to hold the gun with a much firmer grip to get it to shoot well.

I will hold a 1911 in a relaxed grip when I am shooting groups to ck accuracy, but found that you have to stay on top of your grip with the M&P to shoot better groups. I think that is because of the single action trigger.

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In my experience with stock XD and M&P triggers they are extremely hard to shoot at distance. You have to grip the guns really hard to keep your fingers down on the frontstrap after a couple of rounds, and not anticipate the break. Revolver shooters seem to take to these pretty well. Once you get the trigger done and down to 3-4 lbs it makes a world of difference. I am not saying that people that are getting crappy groups can't shoot, but it takes a lot more work...It is well documented here that a majority of the 9mm barrels won't shoot as well as we would like.

I just got a .40 in that I am doing the trigger on and putting new sights on. I am hoping the barrel will shoot at distance. If not, I will wait for an aftemarket barrel.

Good luck,

DougC

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My M&P Pro with factory federal was accurate enough for me to shoot a Master IDPA classifier with less than 300 rounds through the gun. Thats good enough for me.

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There are a lot of lousy shooters out there that will shoot a gun once, get a 5" group and jump on the internet and try their hardest to tell everyone that a gun is junk. Not just S&Ws, I've seen virtually every make out there. Then there are people that will pull that and don't even own the gun and they are trolls.

Get which one you like more. If by some chance the accuracy is not what you want, S&W will take care of you.

Buy American, it may be your own job you are saving.

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The main issue I would suggest with the M&P regarding accuracy is the quality of the barrels. Since I got mine, I've seen people post quite a few pictures of barrels that simply should NOT have made it past QC (like barrels not having rifling the whole length of the barrel, and other major screw ups). 

Heck, even my early gun had some barrel issues (40 fullsize). Namely, one land/groove transition would just slice through plating on plated bullets and lead up badly. Jacketed ammo was fine though. It really caused accuracy issues with any ammo that went over 900fps. Under that and accuracy was fine, although it did need to have the lead buildup in the one groove cleaned out more frequently than I liked.  In the end, I just bought a storm lake match barrel for it.  Higher velocity stuff started shooting better, and accuracy increased at all velocities. 

At least with my .40, plenty of factory ammo shot fine in my M&P. 

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If your gun doesn't shoot lead well, you really need to lap the barrel. Its super easy, just get some JB Borepaste (Midway carries it) or Valve Lapping Compound from an auto parts store, load up a patch and run it through the bore a hundred or so times. You'll notice an immediate difference, it'll be easier to clean and will be more accurate. It works for jacketed bullets too.

Another option is to roll soft lead bullets between steel plates in the compound, load them up and shoot them, this is firelapping. You can also buy pre-made bullets that just need to be loaded up. Beartooth Bullets and David Tubb sell kits and bullets, Tubb sells some loaded ammunition.

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I just flogged my CZ 85 because of accuracy concerns and bout a 9L. Everyone and his brother had a go with the 85 and no-one cold make it group. I went for the 9L because "everyone" kept on saying how good the accuracy was. Now I stumble across this thread.

I hope my 9l woks well since, for me it was quite a large investment.

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Well here is my first unsupported 25 yard group from my first range trip with my stock FS 9mm (My first time ever shooting an M&P period). Previously reported elsewhere:

http://www.thegunvault.org/forums/showthread.php?1393-Project-M-P-9mm-ver-Apex-Tactical-Specialties&p=29613&viewfull=1#post29613

~260 rounds of PMC, Lawmen and 124gr +P Ranger-T with no malfunctions, a better sight picture and the trigger is fantastic as I previously reported so I can actually feel a reset. I'm still trying to figure out which grip insert I need to stick with between the small and medium as I'm having problems with a consistent grip and need to re-adjust more often than I'd like. The gun did not seem to like the powder puff PMC and preferred the hotter Lawmen and Ranger-T +P, so I'm going to experiment with different plinking ammo to see what works the most consistently. Here is two 25 yard groups with the Ranger-T of 5 rounds each since it's a little expensive to replace:

This one isn't too bad

190dfdf6.jpg

And my second time last night after getting it back from Apex Tactical with the DCAEK, FR Extractor and Heinie Ledge sights installed and sighted in.

57a19281.jpg

I ran out of targets and had to buy another from the range counter, I should have quit while I was ahead (same distance):

f4f4ead9.jpg

Where did the 5th round go? 6 o'clock of the target on the backing :blush:

Next time I'm going at the start of a day and not the end where I'm tired.

Edited by Shenaniguns

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My accuracy with my Pro and factory ammo was just so-so. I added the Apex trigger parts and Dawson sights and accuracy improved. I added grip tape and accuracy really improved. This week I shot a box of Atlanta Arms & Ammo Team Glock match load and got the best groups I ever shot, 5 rounds in just over an inch at 25 yds. I hit an 8" steel plate 6 out of 10 times at 50 yards. I'm ordering 2000 rounds come payday.

Edited to add: OK, that was my single best group. Several were a bit larger.

Edited by fiddler

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My accuracy with my Pro and factory ammo was just so-so. I added the Apex trigger parts and Dawson sights and accuracy improved. I added grip tape and accuracy really improved. This week I shot a box of Atlanta Arms & Ammo Team Glock match load and got the best groups I ever shot, 5 rounds in just over an inch at 25 yds. I hit an 8" steel plate 6 out of 10 times at 50 yards. I'm ordering 2000 rounds come payday.

Edited to add: OK, that was my single best group. Several were a bit larger.

My Pro certainly likes the AA&A as well but I got an e-mail yesterday with groups a friend shot using it out of his Pro and it threw patterns :( I'd would love to know why they seem to be so picky about ammo, with no obvious pattern as to style or weight.

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