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RCI Xrail


mrwhite1

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I think the limited shooters will care because after a while it gets kinda boring to shove rounds into the gun. The shotgun game is already to much of a reloading game, no reason to make it more so.

And I agree completely. Having stages with 24 rounds of shotgun or even 15 pushes the limit of what is practical but once the door is open to the chicken coop your not going to get that fox out.

I have haard a noted shooter say repeatedly that a pistol or a shotgun is what you use to fight your way to a rifle and yet another say that one would never use a slug if a rifle were available. That is the practical application. But if we turned down the number rounds we fire from our shotguns at matches, those that have invested heavily in their shotguns and those who do better with the shotgun than the rifle or pistol would complain. I can say that on the diversity side, if we lessened the role of shotguns at matches that we would have more women shooters.

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Mild thread drift alert .. I've recently shot a team 3gun match in PA that was very interesting. By adding a team component to every stage, you can have short shotgun use, 8-16 rounds can still make a huge difference to the stage, and you can also have the team play to the strengths and weakness of the team members.

Anyway, the Xrail looks really interesting, I'm just worried that some stage designers will start making stages against it, hurting everyone.

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Mild thread drift alert .. I've recently shot a team 3gun match in PA that was very interesting. By adding a team component to every stage, you can have short shotgun use, 8-16 rounds can still make a huge difference to the stage, and you can also have the team play to the strengths and weakness of the team members.

Anyway, the Xrail looks really interesting, I'm just worried that some stage designers will start making stages against it, hurting everyone.

I like the concept of team play but I a afraid that it will be very slow to catch on at all except the largest of matches. Team play also looks good on television.

As to what stage designers will and will not do, they end up doing all sorts of things and the ones who do it the best pay attention to competitor feedback. IMO the easy way to deal with the higher capacity of the XRail and Saigas is to have stages where you shoot bird, slugs and buck well mixed upon the stage. Sure you can load in order but that only works well provided you do not miss.

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I think the limited shooters will care because after a while it gets kinda boring to shove rounds into the gun. The shotgun game is already to much of a reloading game, no reason to make it more so.

And I agree completely. Having stages with 24 rounds of shotgun or even 15 pushes the limit of what is practical but once the door is open to the chicken coop your not going to get that fox out.

I have haard a noted shooter say repeatedly that a pistol or a shotgun is what you use to fight your way to a rifle and yet another say that one would never use a slug if a rifle were available. That is the practical application. But if we turned down the number rounds we fire from our shotguns at matches, those that have invested heavily in their shotguns and those who do better with the shotgun than the rifle or pistol would complain. I can say that on the diversity side, if we lessened the role of shotguns at matches that we would have more women shooters.

I shoot multigun because I like it. I have no illusions its some kind training so I dont care rat spit about fighting my way to a rifle.

I enjoy the shotgun and rifle most and like the high round counts and when I was shooting a SX2 still did. Reloading be it be in tactical or open is just part of the stage. I find open more fun and less reloading is nice but not a dealbreaker. My two cents.

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  • 3 weeks later...

What ammo are you guys using on your full version Xrail (Benelli M1)?

I have some difficulties to find proper length and cheap ammo for it. Bird shot 2.4mm to 3.5mm loads and buck shot 6.1mm to 9.00mm

I'm using Sellier Bellot 28g slug which unshot length is 58mm (2.28").

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  • 4 weeks later...

I shoot Tactical Division, so both Saiga 12 and X-Rail are not options for me. However, I do own a Saiga 12, and shoot it occasionally in local 3-gun matches (just for grins). I also recently had a chance to shoot an X-Rail equipped Benelli open gun.

My Saiga 12 runs 100% in my light duty applications, and is both light in the hand and remarkably soft shooting. I would actually recommend running the S12 with the standard rock-n-lock magazine well, which allows the use of 20-round drum mags... I expect this would be more advantageous overall than the marginally faster reloads with aftermarket mag wells. If you did the pistol grip conversion yourself, you could have a match winning Saiga 12 for less than the cost of the X-Rail system alone. With the above said, I would still hesitate to run a Saiga 12 in serious competition because of reliability concerns under heavy usage, difficulty with parts availability, and the added challenge of select slug stages.

My very limited exposure to the X-Rail was quite positive. It ran 100% when I shot it in one stage (the second stage I shot in this video). The owner of the gun said he struggled with getting the Benelli's inertia system to run with the X-Rail - he had to lighten the recoil spring and run heavy game loads. A gas operated gun like the Remington 1100/11-87 or the FN SLP/Win SX2 would make a lot more sense. The X-Rail makes the gun VERY muzzle heavy, of course, but I suspect filling the buttstock with lead shot would help the balance a lot. The nice thing about the X-Rail system is flexibility - it is easy to insert a slug as needed (provided the magazine has not just indexed itself). Long-term robustness is unproven, of course, and the amount of plastic used in the X-Rail makes this a real concern.

If I were ever to switch to Open Division, and if $$$ were not a factor, I think I would lean towards the X-Rail on a gas operated gun.

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What ammo are you guys using on your full version Xrail (Benelli M1)?

I have some difficulties to find proper length and cheap ammo for it. Bird shot 2.4mm to 3.5mm loads and buck shot 6.1mm to 9.00mm

I'm using Sellier Bellot 28g slug which unshot length is 58mm (2.28").

I am running a M2 rather than a M1 and you can forget cheap ammo. The birdshot I am using is 1350 fps in a 1.25 oz load by Fiochee. Buckshot is federal flight control and I used the Wolf 1oz slugs. This is rather heavy ammo but with the extra weight of the gun, recoil may be softer than with the standard ammo in a gun without an xrail.

In my experience an M1 runs better than an M2 so if you are considering using an M1, you might be able to use a little lighter load.

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My problem basically is to find RIGHT length of ammo.

Either the ammo is too short or too long. (the system won't rotate)

I saw the pictures of the PanAm match and there were competitors with Xrail systems.

What brand of ammo they were using?

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My problem basically is to find RIGHT length of ammo.

Either the ammo is too short or too long. (the system won't rotate)

I saw the pictures of the PanAm match and there were competitors with Xrail systems.

What brand of ammo they were using?

There were 3 of use at Pan Am with xrails. I used Fiocchi. Mark used Winchester and I am not sure what was running in Larry's gun. I had my xrail on a M2, Mark was using a Mossberg and Larry's was attached to an FN. All of our shells would have been 2.75 inches.

If you are using all ammo which is the same length your xrail should rotate. When loading the xrail I always have to pull the retention pin to rotate off of the long tube and sometimes off of the short tubes to go to the next one to load it. But I know of no reason when you fire the gun that the system should not rotate as intended as the shorter tubes empty.

When my xrail was brand new I did have a problem getting it to rotate when I loaded it. Sometimes I had to pull the retention pin and push just a tad on the shells in the tube at the loading port to get them to the right point for the shells to allow the tube to rotate to the next one. After about 200 rounds through the system the springs settled in to the proper compression and this went away. You might just want to load it fully up and leave it a couple of days and see if that makes things easier.

Keep in mind that it being a problem to load should not be a problem using it since you will never in a match reload to anything other than the longer tube. If you are having a problem with it rotating during the firing process, get in touch with Mark who developed the system as that would be a problem I have not experienced.

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My problem basically is to find RIGHT length of ammo.

Either the ammo is too short or too long. (the system won't rotate)

I saw the pictures of the PanAm match and there were competitors with Xrail systems.

What brand of ammo they were using?

European roll-crimped shotshells will sometime have a different overall length than American brand star-crimped shells. My friend who uses a Super 90 found this out the hard way just before a match with "budget" roll-crimped imported buckshot.

I use a Saiga and they do work better than most realize. Adding a pistol-grip and U.S. made components sometimes reduces their reliability unless the person doing the conversion knows what their with an AK-based firearm. I often "stack" my magazines if a stage has shot/slugs/buck (i.e. targets are buck, buck, then slug, slug then thats how the mag is loaded). It's not the fastest shotgun system to load, but then my Saiga-12 is fairly reliable, very soft-shooting and was only $299 new from CDNN several years ago.

Edited by ronswin
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Thanks!

I try to find Fiocchi and Winchester ammo for it.

I have difficulties only when filling the gun

Try the ammo you have using the push up the tube technique. This is what I had to do to start but after loading and firing it several times the problem vanished.

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Try the ammo you have using the push up the tube technique. This is what I had to do to start but after loading and firing it several times the problem vanished.

I tried to figure out how to do that but I don't have 3 hands available. :rolleyes:

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Try the ammo you have using the push up the tube technique. This is what I had to do to start but after loading and firing it several times the problem vanished.

I tried to figure out how to do that but I don't have 3 hands available. :rolleyes:

And I understand your point very well as it was a pill for me to do it but if a silly American can do it so can you. :) Of course you will never have to do this in a match on the clock and after you load the gun a bit and the springs settle in the need to do this will vanish.

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  • 2 weeks later...

If you can't find any ammo the right length you might be able to unscrew the flange adapter a little bit to get it closer.

By "flange adapter" I mean the flanged piece that screws into the X-Rail body, not the adapter pc that screws onto your shotgun.

If that's not an option I'd give Mark Roth a call to see if he has or can make a longer piece for you.

I use AA Super Handicap which is what my X-Rail is made for.

Even AA light Target may be too long since it is longer than Super Handi by a lot!

I've started measuring my ammo to make sure it's the right length.

At the local 3-Gun match a few weekends ago I had to mix slugs and shot in one loading and the slugs were pretty long.

Mark looked at the ramp and said it was a toss up but didn't look ideal.

It worked without a hitch anyways.

Nick

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As to what stage designers will and will not do, they end up doing all sorts of things and the ones who do it the best pay attention to competitor feedback. IMO the easy way to deal with the higher capacity of the XRail and Saigas is to have stages where you shoot bird, slugs and buck well mixed upon the stage. Sure you can load in order but that only works well provided you do not miss.

It's been a while since I looked at this thread, so sorry for dragging this back up...

If people with tec-loaders, X-rails, or Saigas are all competing in a different division than regular tube feds, why the need to design stages to deliberately sabotage the advantage/fun of using that equipment?

For years and years stage design was such that it encouraged people to develop and use this stuff, and now that its on the field we want to design stages to screw with it just for the sake of doing so? I just don't get it.

"Safety" is often used as a reason here as to why not to do particular things in stage design; the more select loading you're having people do the more possible its going to be for them to shoot the wrong target with a slug. And lets hope its not in the air at a flying clay. Distinctive engagement points for slugs at the start or end of a stage go a long way to reducing this potential.

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BTW is anyone using the 4 full length rotating tube model or just the ones that screw on to the end of the gun? That one looks the most interesting to me.

If you are talking about the intregrated model I do not thing there are many of those out yet. They only work with a Benelli since you have to have the gas system in place for any other system.

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If you are talking about the intregrated model I do not thing there are many of those out yet. They only work with a Benelli since you have to have the gas system in place for any other system.

If people are reporting the need for tuning to work with Benellis with the non-integrated model, I really wonder how much work is required to make it worth with that much extra weight on it.

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As to what stage designers will and will not do, they end up doing all sorts of things and the ones who do it the best pay attention to competitor feedback. IMO the easy way to deal with the higher capacity of the XRail and Saigas is to have stages where you shoot bird, slugs and buck well mixed upon the stage. Sure you can load in order but that only works well provided you do not miss.

It's been a while since I looked at this thread, so sorry for dragging this back up...

If people with tec-loaders, X-rails, or Saigas are all competing in a different division than regular tube feds, why the need to design stages to deliberately sabotage the advantage/fun of using that equipment?

For years and years stage design was such that it encouraged people to develop and use this stuff, and now that its on the field we want to design stages to screw with it just for the sake of doing so? I just don't get it.

"Safety" is often used as a reason here as to why not to do particular things in stage design; the more select loading you're having people do the more possible its going to be for them to shoot the wrong target with a slug. And lets hope its not in the air at a flying clay. Distinctive engagement points for slugs at the start or end of a stage go a long way to reducing this potential.

Amen!

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As to what stage designers will and will not do, they end up doing all sorts of things and the ones who do it the best pay attention to competitor feedback. IMO the easy way to deal with the higher capacity of the XRail and Saigas is to have stages where you shoot bird, slugs and buck well mixed upon the stage. Sure you can load in order but that only works well provided you do not miss.

It's been a while since I looked at this thread, so sorry for dragging this back up...

If people with tec-loaders, X-rails, or Saigas are all competing in a different division than regular tube feds, why the need to design stages to deliberately sabotage the advantage/fun of using that equipment?

For years and years stage design was such that it encouraged people to develop and use this stuff, and now that its on the field we want to design stages to screw with it just for the sake of doing so? I just don't get it.

"Safety" is often used as a reason here as to why not to do particular things in stage design; the more select loading you're having people do the more possible its going to be for them to shoot the wrong target with a slug. And lets hope its not in the air at a flying clay. Distinctive engagement points for slugs at the start or end of a stage go a long way to reducing this potential.

Amen!

And I agree. From shooting the Pan Am Shotgun, I know that IPSC never mixes ammo type on a stage. But let us not forget that when we shoot a USPSA match or an independent match where slugs and buckshot and birdshot are all mixed on a stage, it challenges the rest of the pack who have to remember where to load what and from what portion of the belt to load ammo or they end up shooting slugs on steel, etc.

My preference is to not mix different types of ammo on a stage, but I really can not see anything wrong with it.

Charles

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"Safety" is often used as a reason here as to why not to do particular things in stage design; the more select loading you're having people do the more possible its going to be for them to shoot the wrong target with a slug. And lets hope its not in the air at a flying clay. Distinctive engagement points for slugs at the start or end of a stage go a long way to reducing this potential.

That is the main reason why we don't mix ammo on same stage at IPSC even though it's allowed.

If yo need to mix let's say slugs and bird you put them at the end of the stage or in the beginning of the stage not in the middle.

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