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1911/2011 vs Polymer Limited Guns


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I am a new 3 gun competitor and shoot an XDM-9. I have noticed that a lot of competitors shoot 1911/2011 frames. Can you help me understand why these frames are so popular? I am not interested in the "appeal" factor, I want some really good technical information on the differences between the polymer frame guns like the Glock and XD and the Caspian, Kimber, STI crowd.

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unlimited ways for customization, plus the benefit of the single action trigger (most of which are like glass). thats the benefits I can see from an outside vantage point.

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Yes, STI, SVI, Kimber, Springfield Armory and several others my shooting partners were happy to let me try.

That good. Most shooter's are happy to let you play with their prized "toys".

IMO the 2011 platform is for the majority of people the easiest pistol to shoot the best scores with.

1. Crisp/light single action trigger (as mentioned above)

2. Large magwell opening (Faster magwell changes)

3. Magazine Design (Easy insertion, capacity etc..)

4. Low bore axis ( The XD's is fairly high) Less muzzle flip

5. Parts availability and ease of customization.. It's like the 350 Chevy small block to hotrodders.

Your XD can be given a great trigger(Canyon Creek Custom, Springer and others) & hey, if you've shot the 2011's and are wondering why all "the fuss" , I'd just stick with the XD, shoot the snot of it a whup up on the boys with the high dollar pistols. wink.gif

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STI also has a "contigency program" where you can earn up to $350 if you win or place high enough in certain matches:

http://stiguns.com/ContingencyRewards.php

So if you go to a major match, that might explain why you see so many red, white, and black STI shirts being worn.

Another thing to keep in mind is that STI double stack guns, the 2011's, in .40 may have a few more rounds in capacity versus other .40 cal pistols like your XD's, M and P's, and definitely Beretta's.

Just to put this bug into the OP's ear...some 3 gun matches don't have a PF for pistol ammo, so there is no real incentive to jump ship from a 9mm XD to a .40 cal STI/SVI .

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Dave Sevigny won 2006 Limited Nationals with a near-stock Glock 35.

Rob Leatham has won more matches for more years than I've been alive, and he uses a Springfield Hi-cap (not a 2011).

BBut if you gave either of those guys a 2011, they'd still win. And there are even more accounts of guys winning with 2011's. It's just the nature of the platform. It's so easily modifiable (which is good in open and limited) and parts/gunsmithing for them can be found everywhere.

I agree with "It's the Indian, not the arrow," but I'll stick with my 2011 anyway.

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My $0.02.

I was shooting an M&P 40 waiting for an M&P 40L. Had a 2011 built cause I always wanted one, and got tired of waiting. Of course then the 40l came out.  :rolleyes:

Paul's points are pretty spot on, but I could add a couple things. 

So... trigger: it's a linear pull rather than hinged. In my experience, you are less likely to upset your sight picture with such a trigger given the same weight pull. Granted, you can get the XD, Glock  and M&P triggers light enough to make that a moot point, but when you do you compromise. With a 1911 style trigger, I have a choice of trigger profile, trigger length, can easily adjust take up and over travel, and can have a light trigger with short positive reset. All the polymers make more compromises, and none of them offer much choice in trigger profile. Ex: and xd can have a really light trigger, but i haven't met one with a light CRISP trigger.  With the 1911 trigger set up, you can get light and breaks like a glass rod, or you can go with parts that give you a bit of camming and get a trigger that you pull through more.

Mass and mass distribution: I love the way polymer pistols transition due to their overall weight, but even with frame flex taking some of the edge off recoil, having most of the mass in the slide isn't a good thing. If you tri-top and do some additional lightening, go with a bushing barrel, and a standard length dust cover frame, you can get reasonably close to the weight of a g35 with a mag well.  But it is better balanced, and less of that mass is reciprocating. Also for going really fast, less mass in the slide means shorter cycle time.  Of course, if you think light guns suck, the 2011 platform can accommodate you better than the various polymers. 

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I primarily compete with a 1911/2011 for the same reason that when I first got "serious" about shooting pistols I liked the feel, the grip angle, and the trigger of the 1911 better than the Glock. I've since played a little with the XD and I occasionally stink up the joint in production with my M&P, but for my money, nothing in the world is better than that straight, crisp, single action trigger pull.

If you could put a 1911 trigger in an M&P, I'd look at it, but no striker fired pistol feels as nice to me. For that matter, I'm a big fan of my T series Browning High Power, but after shooting sweet 1911 triggers for enough years, I just admire the HP for its design and history. It's become a safe queen due to the trigger.

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I am a new 3 gun competitor...

One of the most important things in 3gun is having 3-guns that run. You've got a lot of gear to juggle. It's a blessing if it works reliably.

You are right on the mark and you hit on something I was thinking about with my post but didn't really know how to bring up as part of the discussion without seeming like the fng.

One of the mysteries about this game is all the very expensive guns I see malfunction when the buzzer goes off. At this point, I need the result to be a product of what my brain and body can produce. I don't have the skill level or desire to overcome equipment issues. I guess that makes up a portion of why I started this forum question...I appreciate all the responses.

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Its just a choice. Locally, all the open guys run STIs, most of the limited guys run STIs, a few run Glocks or XDs. The Productions guys run all kinds of guns. You can build anything to shoot in open, I know a few guys that shoot open Glocks and they do very very well. There is nothing wrong with any of them, build what you like and enjoy it! I'm planning on building a few different M&Ps to compete with.

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I shot with Nils Jonasson in an USPSA match last weekend. I saw him shoot a stage with his G-34 in the high 10.s with good hits. One of the other guys in the squad let him run his STI limited gun in .40 major. Nils was able to knock almost 2 seconds off his time with better hits.

He said the triggers are on much different levels, and the felt recoil was similar to his 9mm.

I think there are advatages to a coustom gun, but don't get in the equiptment race. Nils beats everyone that challanges him (open guns included) with his stock G-34. (he has a magwell and sights)

my $.02

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Mag. capacity is a big factor also.

Richard

How so? 

Most STIs are maxing out at 20 reloadable, if you are going to pay through the nose, possibly 21. The glock and M&P get you to 20 too. XD-M does 21. 

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I boutht an STI mainly for the "accuracy" factor. It does shoot better than my plastic guns...and looks a LOT better. As far as snobs on the skeet fields (sleeping with their Beretta's), our snobs only shoot Kreighoff's and Perazzis! Beretta guys are grouped with the Browning shooters.

Most shooters out here have never seen an STI or SVI, as they just are not that popular. I am saving for a SVI next!

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I boutht an STI mainly for the "accuracy" factor. It does shoot better than my plastic guns...and looks a LOT better. As far as snobs on the skeet fields (sleeping with their Beretta's), our snobs only shoot Kreighoff's and Perazzis! Beretta guys are grouped with the Browning shooters.

Most shooters out here have never seen an STI or SVI, as they just are not that popular. I am saving for a SVI next!

If your 1911 frames are more accurate than your polymer guns, what are the specific differences? trigger weight, LOP, reset; overall balance; overall weight; recoil management? What is it specifically that you believe makes the 1911/2011 more accurate for you?

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I boutht an STI mainly for the "accuracy" factor. It does shoot better than my plastic guns...and looks a LOT better. As far as snobs on the skeet fields (sleeping with their Beretta's), our snobs only shoot Kreighoff's and Perazzis! Beretta guys are grouped with the Browning shooters.

Most shooters out here have never seen an STI or SVI, as they just are not that popular. I am saving for a SVI next!

If your 1911 frames are more accurate than your polymer guns, what are the specific differences? trigger weight, LOP, reset; overall balance; overall weight; recoil management? What is it specifically that you believe makes the 1911/2011 more accurate for you?

With a wedge mainspring housing and a big magwell, the 2011 fits my hands better than any polymer I have shot much (the xd-m might be an exception, but I've only shot a few rounds through one). Good ergonomics make it easier to be accurate. A good, crisp, light trigger with a short reset helps with accuracy. Being able to pick a trigger that is the right length to be right where you need it without losing any of those features helps with the ergonomics as well.

Then their is the weight distribution. The gun is overall a bit heavier, but the slide is lighter. Still a pretty darn light gun with less reciprocating mass than the polymer guns. This makes them feel softer shooting. Better recoil management makes it easier to be more accurate faster.

Then there is barrel fitment. Factory STIs have better barrel fit than any of the polymer pistols I have shot (i'd give the sig p220 and cz97b a shot at being as good while not being a 1911). The guns cost more, and they get more TLC than the $100 manufacturing cost of a glock,M&P, XD can cover. Compared to a good gunsmith fit barrel, it's not even close.

Edited by raz-0
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