Possible cure to round dumping?

[Flexmoney]

This is split off the round dumping thread that was closed. I was asked about it in a PM, and if we can keep the direction of the discussion moving along in a positive direction, then we ought to be able to talk about it.Copy what I posted in the other thread, and then copy in what I was asked in the PM...

Here is my inner Q&A (pardon me if my terminology is a bit off, as it is MY inner dialog ) ...

Q: Why dump rounds.

A: Because it is a faster tactic to do a slide lock reload.

Q: How is it faster to take an extra shot (split time), to allow for a slide lock reload.

A: A non slide lock reload requires the retention of the expelled magazine. Which takes more time.

Q: Why do a retention reload?

A: It is required by the rules.

Q: Why?

A: Retaining ammo is deemed a good tactic.

Q: Is it always a good tactic to retain ammo?

A: Arguably...speed and accuracy can be a higher priority, at times.

Q: So, why mandate a retention tactic at all times other than slide lock?

A: Hmmm...perhaps to beat home the tactic.

Q: If there are times when that tactic is not the ideal, should it be the default/standard?

A: If it is not mandated, then the competitors won't do it.

Q: Why won't they do it?

A: Because it is a slow tactic.

Q: Again, why do a slow tactic ?

A: To force/teach/train the shooters to retain ammo.

Q: How is that working out?

A: Ahhh...they just dump rounds. They have learned to burn the extra ammo, along with wasting shots and time.

Q: Is there any other way to get the functionality of the retention message to the shooters, without it having to be the standard?

A: Hmmm...why, yes there it, actually.

Q: How so?

A: We could just mandate it as part of the scenario in the cof's that we wish to use to test it, instead of having it be the standard.

[Flexmoney]

Q: Is there any other way to get the functionality of the retention message to the shooters, without it having to be the standard?

A: Hmmm...why, yes there it, actually.

Q: How so?

A: We could just mandate it as part of the scenario in the cof's that we wish to use to test it, instead of having it be the standard.

In a recent thread you posted the following, which I'm not sure how you'd implement. Would it be "any reloads allowed" except on certain stages where you state that ammo must be retained? Or would you specify that you must perform a tactical reload here and here.

How would you implement this?

Thanks,

For an quick (and probably short-sighted) answer...

Yes, in my mind...you would change the rule book to "any reloads allowed" as the standard.

Then, if you want to specify retaining ammo...do so in the scenario/stage briefing.

I think that would provide the same idea/functionality, without the issues.

[CHA-LEE]

Flex> Adding the reload type to the stage briefing is probably the best idea. Everything else you do in the stage is usually mandated, so why not that as well?

[CHA-LEE]

I never really understood the “Tactical Reload” mandate of IDPA since the stages are never more than 18 rounds and I have never seen a stage briefing instruct you to shoot your gun dry and then reuse one of your previously retained magazines. If you wanted to be a “Gamer” what stops you from putting a strong magnet in your pocket and simply slapping the spent mag against the magnet to hold it against your pants so you don’t have to fiddle with putting the mag back in a pouch or pocket? Or even better….. You could get some of those old school key rings that have a spring loaded chain that pulls it back up into the spool, then the spool attaches to your belt. You could attach the chain to the bottom of the magazine so when you push the mag release it pulls the mag back to your belt automatically. These over the top gaming idea’s make about as much sense as having to retain magazines that you don’t use again in the stage.

It would be better, or at least more realistic, if they reused your spent magazines from the first stage on the second stage. That way if you dumped rounds on the first stage you wouldn’t have any rounds on the second stage to shoot with, or at least run out of rounds before you are done with the second stage. That might actually make people earn their hits and plan for the whole match……hhhhmmmmm

But I digress..... I am just a "Crazy IPSC Shooter" as proclaimed by most IDPA SO's that have had to deal with me at their IDPA match.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Then, if you want to specify retaining ammo...do so in the scenario/stage briefing.

If you specify retaining ammo you will have to allow for all capacities in the stage description. Including 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 rounds.

[Shibby]

Q: How so?

A: We could just mandate it as part of the scenario in the cof's that we wish to use to test it, instead of having it be the standard.

Does it need to be mandated in the description?

Stage designers can offer a reward for doing a tac load or rwr if they want to test it. For example, have a stage where shots 8-12 can be shot on the move, but if you run out of ammo in the open you have to retreat to cover. So if you can do a tac load or rwr relatively fast, top off your gun before leaving cover and blast the targets on the move. If not you take the shots from cover and load as normal.

[Chills1994]

I like my idea of throwing in a steel activator somewhere say around where shot #9 should go. Since most people are shooting ESP and SSP divisions with 10 + 1 in the gun, the shot #9 goes on the steel, then shots 10 and 11 go on the swinger or drop turner. If the shooter has round dumped prior to the steel, then he is SOL...either just putting one shot on the moving target then going to slide lock, or having to do a slide lock reload after hitting the activator...and in the case of a disappearing drop turner...WHOOPS!! two mikes = to a minus 10 target points down.

Let me search through the Tackleberry Productions archives to see if I have some examples in mind....

Video google link, stage actually starts out with an empty gun on barrel and just 6 in the mag, but you get the idea

This is probably how the stage designer wanted it to be shot.

[Chills1994]

Just throwing this out there...see if it sticks...it is kinda like throwing the baby out with the bath water...

Just how many or which states still have the 10 round mag limit?

IDPA could just go to whatever capacity the gun holds with full capacity mags in those states where legal, which I am also suspecting are those same states (well, most of them, anyway) that also have shall issue CCW laws on the books. I seriously doubt that the guys who CCW with a Glock 17 are dowloading their mags just to 10.

So going with that new rule, I speculate that a good 75% of your shooters would be affected...the ones in SSP and ESP divisions.

So that means that the ESP and SSP guys will probably NOT have to do a reload at all during any field course-ish like stage, where the rules already set up an 18 round max limit.

Instead the new rules could stipulate that mandatory reloads or mag changes would only be done on standards type stages.

The flip side to that coin, of course, is that it kinda leaves the CDP and revolver guys in a lurch...kinda .

[Chills1994]

Pardon the triple post. I don't mean to monopolize this thread. If IDPA is supposed to represent possible real world scenarios, then has anybody done any research into real shootings and asked the surviving "good guy" if he did a reload with retention at some point during the shootout???

If any statistics can come to light and they all show that the "last man standing" only reloaded from slide lock (when he figured the gun wasn't going bang any more for some odd reason)...then...well...maybe the IDPA's reload with retention should go away.

Just sayin'...

[Duane Thomas]

and I have never seen a stage briefing instruct you to shoot your gun dry and then reuse one of your previously retained magazines

I have, several times, during standards exercises. But then you do wind up with a "memory stage" that rewards the ability to execute short term rote memorization under stress. I love such stages since, though whatever mental quirk, I'm really good at them. But when I watch every other shooter on my squad screw up the stage procedure - badly - I do have to wonder whether that's really what we need to be measuring here.

[MemphisMechanic]

It would be better, or at least more realistic, if they reused your spent magazines from the first stage on the second stage...hhhhmmmmm

I have been to two MAJOR sanctioned matches where they did just that. Sort of.

2 mags on your belt. 18 round stage. Mandated RWR/TacLoad after the third target. (six rounds)

You're going back the stored mag. No way around it. These are the reasons I do not dump the mag into my vest's outside pocket. Muscle memory causes you to swat that cover garment out of the way before you can stop yourself, and I actually felt my mag hit the kidney on the far side of my back. That reload took a while.

I tuck the partial mag into my waistband now.

I like my idea of throwing in a steel activator somewhere say around where shot #9 should go. Since most people are shooting ESP and SSP divisions with 10 + 1 in the gun, the shot #9 goes on the steel, then shots 10 and 11 go on the swinger or drop turner. If the shooter has round dumped prior to the steel, then he is SOL...either just putting one shot on the moving target then going to slide lock, or having to do a slide lock reload after hitting the activator...and in the case of a disappearing drop turner...WHOOPS!! two mikes = to a minus 10 target points down.

I can tell you with certainty that there is time to slide-lock-reload between a forward-falling popper and an MGM drop-turner. I zero'd the DT, and that bastard was hardcover on the lower 50% of the target. We did it at the Tri-State Regional this year here in Memphis.

Stage was a paper, and a popper. Gun was loaded with three rounds. Steel activated a drop-turner. If you missed the popper, a tac-load/RWR was required before you were allowed to fire another shot, as an anti-gaming measure. Keep you head while loading and there's plenty of time.

[Duane Thomas]

If you wanted to be a "Gamer" what stops you from putting a strong magnet in your pocket and simply slapping the spent mag against the magnet to hold it against your pants so you don't have to fiddle with putting the mag back in a pouch or pocket?

The IDPA Rule Book. There is a very short list of places it is legal to store the partially depleted magazine. "Stuck to a pocket that has a magnet inside it" is not on the list.

Or even better….. You could get some of those old school key rings that have a spring loaded chain that pulls it back up into the spool, then the spool attaches to your belt. You could attach the chain to the bottom of the magazine so when you push the mag release it pulls the mag back to your belt automatically. These over the top gaming idea’s make about as much sense as having to retain magazines that you don’t use again in the stage.

Okay, NOW I get that you're being sarcastic.

[MemphisMechanic]

I should add that I personally prefer stages where the tacload isn't required, but is actually the fastest way to shoot it.

Example:

Three targets at either end of a 12 ft. wide wall. Why SLR when standing at the end of the wall, when you have plenty of time to load while moving? It wins every time you do it on the clock.

I like giving shooters the chance, but not requiring it. The smart ones who are confident in their well-practiced RWR will do very well on that stage. Slide-lock types will be a bit behind.

[Greg Bell]

What he said ^^

Most of my stage designs state any legal IDPA reload, except for the obligatory behind the barricade shooting from each side kinda thing.

[Boats]

Thanks for posting again. Thread has been useful to me understanding the rule. Our club will call for Tac reloads at times which takes the choice to dump or tac reload out of play. We have some very good tac reloaders shooting our matches. Without mandating in stages I doubt if I would have put the time into learning. Have never seen a dumping call but never seen rounds fired that were not aimed at a target. Get to another club or match best to understand the rule & how it's called.

On the duck back behind cover to slide lock reload. Watched some going through stages and re-visited my methods. Most don't move feet but let the body swing upright which brings it more behind the cover when reloading. Seems to me the difference is do you maintain eye contact with the target or look at the magwell when reloading. I was taught magwell, no doubt best way to learn. Now I doubt if I need to look at it when tac or slide lock loading & using a pistol I am familiar with.

Boats

Edited March 3, 2010 by Boats

[Chris Christian]

As a previous poster noted, there are times when a RWR makes tactical sense in a IDPA match in terms of COF speed. As for the Real World... I have been through a couple of shoot houses with an unknown number of targets in multiple rooms/hallways. It made a lot of sense to me to RWR after clearing one room and before entering the next.. and I would have done it in real life as well. I developed that midset and RWR speed/confidence shooting IDPA where either the COF required it, or the situation made it the best tactic. I can understand the reason RWR is a part of IDPA. There are times it's valuable.

Chris Christian

[Beretta Lover]

In most cases I the course design has made it more of a necessity for me to make a good decision regarding ammo managment.

I alwaya want a topped off mag if i approach an array of targets, and if I have three steps in between target arrays, I generally try to do a legal retention reload.

Giving a shooter a reason (lots of targets coming up) and some distance in between target arrays make them WANT to not dump rounds

and it does take time to shoot the extra round that gets dumped.

You pretty much end up building courses that seemed more designed for the 10 round crowd in these cases.

CDP people and revolver guys get caught making more reloads in these cases.

[Loves2Shoot]

Round dumping can only be stopped by people being honest. RWR on the clock is just an IDPA skill, so if you play IDPA you should learn it. I disagree with Chris that it is a "valuable skill" when done "on the clock." It should be done while hiding out or in a secure area IMO.

[Ahab]

At our club we eventually went with the "mandate the RWR in the COF description". The language usually goes something like "engage T1-T3 with two shots each and then perform a mandatory reload using any IDPA approved reload before engaging T4-T5" or whatever. That allows the revo guys to shoot their six and do a normal load, but stipulates a RWR for the semi-auto shooters.

I do agree though that truly cunning stages will have it built so that doing the RWR is the fastest way to shoot the stage. Also as an aside, a great way reload with retention that falls within the confines of the rulebooks is to use an empty mag carrier to retain the mag. What I did when shooting ESP was carry all three of my mags on the belt - my "1 for the gun" and the two spares allowed per rule, so at the start of the COF I had the two legal number of mags on my belt, but an extra empty magazine carrier. I got reasonably fast at slamming a partially full magazine into that empty carrier and then going on to the next one for the reload.

[Steve Moneypenny]

My feelings on this are a bit different. I have shot a LOT of IDPA matches around the country and a couple of controversial feelings come out.

1. Tactical reloads on the clock are INSANE, you do a Tac load after action, or before action, not during. On par time courses or 2 string courses of fire, Cool, but DO NOT force me to stand there while I'm all scarred and hurried and fumble with the ammo that makes my gun work.

2. Limit the amount of ammo and make the course design so that doing a tac load now and using that mag later is a must. I know this is had but it can be done. Do a off the clock tac load then have the shooter run out of ammo before the shooting is done.

[Loves2Shoot]

1. Tactical reloads on the clock are INSANE, you do a Tac load after action, or before action, not during. On par time courses or 2 string courses of fire, Cool, but DO NOT force me to stand there while I'm all scarred and hurried and fumble with the ammo that makes my gun work.

I like that and concur. It doesn't bother me personally to have to do it, but it does scare the heck out of me watching newer shootings who are all jacked up under match stress trying to do it.

[eel]

I should add that I personally prefer stages where the tacload isn't required, but is actually the fastest way to shoot it.

Example:

Three targets at either end of a 12 ft. wide wall. Why SLR when standing at the end of the wall, when you have plenty of time to load while moving? It wins every time you do it on the clock.

I like giving shooters the chance, but not requiring it. The smart ones who are confident in their well-practiced RWR will do very well on that stage. Slide-lock types will be a bit behind.

+++++++++++++ On this view. We never mandated a Tac or RWR on any scenario stages in our matches last year. We did mandate some on standard exercises only. Providing a wall gives the shooter an option on how they want to shoot the stage and creates movement. We liked to require shooing on the move also. I'm personally not that concerned about round bumping as long as the target is engaged. One would probably shoot a bad guy more than twice anyway. More rounds fired on target takes time too.

[MemphisMechanic]

We have some very good tac reloaders shooting our matches. Without mandating in stages I doubt if I would have put the time into learning. Have never seen a dumping call but never seen rounds fired that were not aimed at a target.

I hate them on the clock as a mandatory load, but like throwing them in to smoke the stage.

I dryfire 15-20 minutes a day, every day, right now, with Big Match season approaching. 10 dryfire tacloads while swapping sides of a bianchi barricade are part of my routine.

On the duck back behind cover to slide lock reload. Watched some going through stages and re-visited my methods. Most don't move feet but let the body swing upright which brings it more behind the cover when reloading. Seems to me the difference is do you maintain eye contact with the target or look at the magwell when reloading. I was taught magwell, no doubt best way to learn. Now I doubt if I need to look at it when tac or slide lock loading & using a pistol I am familiar with.

I do not move my shoulders or head any more than required to draw the magazine quickly and consistently. I *DO* look at the magwell for every reload. Especially on a tac-load. Without extensive practice, you'll see the pistol continually dropping as the mags are stowed-and-drawn, until it's at belt level when being fed a fresh mag. Keep it up, and KEEP YOUR EYES ON IT. Look the partial mag into it's destination, then lock onto the magwell as you draw and feed the new one. Just like any other reload once the mag is stowed. I also try to get the mag stowed ASAP, so I can move fast. After it's put away, all you have left is a speed reload. Pretend you're playing in USPSA Production.

What I did when shooting ESP was carry all three of my mags on the belt - my "1 for the gun" and the two spares allowed per rule, so at the start of the COF I had the two legal number of mags on my belt, but an extra empty magazine carrier. I got reasonably fast at slamming a partially full magazine into that empty carrier and then going on to the next one for the reload.

I think going for the waistband, if you don't have a spare tire issue, is the fastest possible place to go. Closer to the gun, and to the fresh mag.

Check the 1:00 timestamp on this one. That's my benchmark for a good RWR.

1. Tactical reloads on the clock are INSANE, you do a Tac load after action, or before action, not during. On par time courses or 2 string courses of fire, Cool, but DO NOT force me to stand there while I'm all scarred and hurried and fumble with the ammo that makes my gun work.

2. Limit the amount of ammo and make the course design so that doing a tac load now and using that mag later is a must. I know this is had but it can be done. Do a off the clock tac load then have the shooter run out of ammo before the shooting is done.

Agreed. Let me throw one in, even BEG me to throw one in to win the stage. But don't require it. Please.

[iainmcphersn]

Making the stage limited would eliminate round dumping or at least clarify the action resulting in the penalty. However this is not appropriate for scenario stages where the potential for round dumping exists. No easy answers.

[Strick]

I do think a lot of it comes down to stage design. Give them cover and force reloads from there based on where the targets are in the array is one good way to limit dumping.

On the tac reload/RWR on the clock, I have always found it odd that they "urges" not to use these on the clock then makes you do 2 on the clock in the classifier. When I draw up stages I try to only use them in a standards/drill stage so people get the practice but do try to give options in field courses where it could be a benefit.