Revolver Specific Skills

[No.343]

I've been watching this forum for some time now with great interest. It seems that the overwhelming majority of the topics discussed concern revolver gear. I can certainly understand that considering the problems I've had in the past. I've been blessed with good mentors along the way to help me solve those problems. But I wonder, considering all the skills related forums in the Brian Enos community if all the skills discussed in those forums are directly applicable to the revolver. My guess as a beginner in the revo stuff is probably. Now, I surf the internet in search of pearls of wisdom. I own books by the likes of Enos and Andersen. I even read the words. I didn't just look at the pictures. I don't seem to find a lot of information dealing specifically with revolver shooting. The only topic that I can recall is reloading. So, are there other revolver specific skills that us beginners need to learn? Can you throw me some basic information, so I can ask some intelligent questions? In other words, if I had a magic revolver with magic ammunition that worked flawlessly together what should be the top ten things that I should do to improve my shooting with that revolver?

[Chris Christian]

WOW, there's a good question! Let me see if I can help. (1) I consider it very important that you have grips on the revolver that allow your hand not to shift under the lengthy movement the trigger requires. The gun has to stay solid in the hand on firing. (2) They also need to be slick enough to allow the required hand manipulation needed to eject empty cases, load new ones, quickly establish a new grip, and hit the target with the first round after reload.... finding the right grips for you is IMHO very important, and I am not a fan of rubber grips... to tacky. (3) A smooth trigger is a must. It doesn't really have to be the latest & lightest on the market... just smooth. A good 8.5 pound pull beats a jerky 6 pound pull. (4) If you are shooting a speedloader gun as opposed to a moon clip gun then I would polish the individual chambers. A moon clip has one solid mass coming out to eject empties. A speedloader gun has six individual, and very lightweight, objects that have to be extracted via the ejector strike & gravity. Powder residue can impede ejection there, and ejecting the empty cases is half the reloading process. Nothing is worse than bringing a full speedloader to the gun and finding one empty case didn't clear the cylinder... you then need fast work with a pinky since the hand is occupied with the speed loader (ask me how I know!). Beyond that, it's a matter or practice. Work on "rolling" the revolver... get everything moving at a smooth cadence and make your target transitions within that cadence. The DA pull (don't shoot SA... too slow and too much hand manipulation between shots) allows you to transition at a smooth rhytm. It should be bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang as you move across a target array... and not bang-bang, pause, bang-bang pause, etc.

Lastly, I'll note... in my personal opinion... that spending a few months on a revolver will greatly improve your semi-auto shooting. The trigger control, iron grip for sight alignment & accuracy developed (you can't spray & pray with a revolver) does wonders for your semi-auto shooting.

Chris Christian

[Cherryriver]

To Chris' excellent assessment, I would only add a couple of lesser things: practice counting to six (more), and develop an extraordinary ability to practice repetitive hand motions (as required for reloading) ad infinitum.

In my case, I'd have to add: become a better shot. With only six to work with, it matters more.

All of these seem to me to take on greater significance.

That, and a selective deafness to the snoring in the peanut gallery.

[Chris Christian]

I forgot to mention the counting to six part (thanks Cherryriver, because it is very important!) With only six before a reload you will have to do some serious stage planning. Think about what are the closest targets you can take, where you will reload, what targets are next, and what lies down the road. If you are playing with a Texas Star or a drop turner, you have to plan your reloads to get there with enough rounds in the gun to deal with it... especially drop turners or disappearing targets. Math is a big help, because you don't want to see a drop turner that requires two rounds... engage it... and hear Bang-Click. At the risk of offending the semi-auto fraternity, I will note that revolver shooters need be gifted with a higher level of stage planning skills, math skills, and intelligence, in general.

Chris Christian

[Cherryriver]

Chris, sadly my "gift" seems to be more along the lines of "more-than-sufficient adrenaline production" and that's why I have to bear down on the refill skill.

Fortunately, I seem to be able to multitask well, muttering obscenities while stuffing fresh sixes in the gun pretty much in a constant stream.

Nothing is more important on the star than total, ferocious, concentration on getting perfect hits.

And a "divorced" trigger finger. Oddly, that's the most successful teaching expression I have for the many newbies falling into my clutches: divorce your trigger finger from the rest of your hands and let it work completely separately from everything else. My trainees seem to flourish when they try that.

If only their instructor was able to heed that dictum post-buzzer.

[benos]

Two things that helped me tremendously with a revolver:

1. Don't start pulling the trigger until the sights are on the target.

2. Once you start pulling the trigger, do not vary your pull speed until the gun fires.

Or in other words for 2, never slow down or "stage" the trigger pull.

be

[CJDOUBLETAP]

Two things that helped me tremendously with a revolver:

1. Don't start pulling the trigger until the sights are on the target.

2. Once you start pulling the trigger, do not vary your pull speed until the gun fires.

Or in other words for 2, never slow down or "stage" the trigger pull.

be

Wouldn't number one slow you down? I pull the trigger while I'm transitioning to the next target, so when the sights arrive there I don't have to spend that extra bit of time pulling the trigger... If that makes any sense...

Haha, then again, I'm not a GM.

[Bubber]

343 when will you be back in the OKC area. I have a word Document that may cover some of the stuff, As stated it is mostly reloads and how to stuff but you may find something in it. later rdd

[Wideload]

1. Strategize - study the course and develop/execute to your plan. Don't worry about the other guys in the squad who are using little more modern equipment. Find natural reload positions for a 6 round gun to minimize executing standing reloads.

2. Move smooth -- no point in sprinting to the next shooting position without completing your reload.

3. Economize your motion -- there is more movement in reloading a revolver than an auto and on a typical course of fire, you will do it more often. Eliminate wasted motions.

4. Take time to laugh at yourself and others for insisting on skiing uphill.

Hmmm now I think about it.... 1-3 really is for all divisions... except that in Revo, it's lot harder to catch up by just being fast.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Wideload

[No.343]

Lastly, I'll note... in my personal opinion... that spending a few months on a revolver will greatly improve your semi-auto shooting. The trigger control, iron grip for sight alignment & accuracy developed (you can't spray & pray with a revolver) does wonders for your semi-auto shooting.

Chris Christian

I never really seriously considered smooth grips. I know some very good shooters use them, but my first instinct was to keep them away from me. I am not sure how much difference they would make for me since I am left handed and use my left hand to grab my moon clip and reload. Do you still think they are worth a try?

I am learning how to count to six (give or take one here and there) and I'm beginning to understand how to look at stages in a different light. I think that I am pulling the trigger at the same speed during the shot. However, some shots deserve more time than others and I think that I'm pulling the trigger at a constant, but much slower speed. How do I know if I'm staging the trigger if I'm pulling it reaaaally slow? Does "constant" mean the same speed for all shots regardless of difficulty?

I have to admit that I am guilty of pulling the trigger before I get on target. I haven't caught any trouble doing it yet. Is that a bad habit that will bite me when I get better?

I will continue to work on uttering obscenities while reloading. Maybe my variety is lacking. We will have to finish that discussion over a beer.

I've been shooting the revo exclusively since the Memphis match. Don't tell anybody, but I am seriously thinking that the revolver might just be right where I belong. There are some things about the revolver that I find very appealing. First and foremost is that the long, heavy trigger pull makes it very easy to shoot accurately. It just seems that like I have more time to be patient with the shoot and know that I know what happened with every shot. I think that is just great. Another thing that I really like is that I'm never mindlessly hosing targets. My brain is constantly engaged. The old excuse of my brain falling out with the beep just won't work. I think that is just great. I know I'm repeating myself, but I mean it!

I know that I need to work on fundamentals and mechanics. I know I can always improve, but I started this thread because I want to take this silly game to the next level.

Thanks for all your help.

Roger - I'll be home late in March and should be at the April OKC match.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

After 8+ years of trying to master the wheel, I can say this. Always shoot for A's, you don't have lattitude for C or D. Practice reloads, whether weak hand (my preference) or strong hand, practice, practice, practice. It must be second nature so that you don't even think about it. That is where you will lose time. In reloading, remember the old saying, smooth is fast and fast is smooth. Don't worry about the bottem-feeders, they are an inferior quality of shooter. Last, but not least, shoot your game. Do not try to keep up with other wheel-gunners who have more experience and skill than you. (Don't ask me how I learned this.) Just have a plan and stick to it. Better plans will come with experience. And always remember, have fun!

My .02 for what it is worth.

If you get the chance, shoot with Bubber or Walter Mitty. You can learn a lot from them, I know I have.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Bwana Six-Gun

[snertley]

For me one of the hardest thing to learn was the reloads. I started off doing strong hand reloads then changed over to weak hand after about a year. Make your self some dummy rounds and practice, practice, practice your reloads. After awhile you will be able to do them without even thinking about them. (note I do not advocate practice since it is unethical and should never be done).

Other pointers is do NOT take wardrobe advise from Cliff.

[D.carden]

Make your self some dummy rounds and practice, practice, practice your reloads. After awhile you will be able to do them without even thinking about them.

And learn to do this on the 'move' explosively.......After the last shot of an array, spent moon-clip out on first step, reload moon-clip in on second step. Then go like hell to the next target. That is where the game is won/lost if your keeping up on your hits....

And make sure the gun "RUNS". Light primer strikes will end your race..!!!!!

DanBagger

[ChrisC]

Lastly, I'll note... in my personal opinion... that spending a few months on a revolver will greatly improve your semi-auto shooting. The trigger control, iron grip for sight alignment & accuracy developed (you can't spray & pray with a revolver) does wonders for your semi-auto shooting.

Chris Christian

I never really seriously considered smooth grips. I know some very good shooters use them, but my first instinct was to keep them away from me. I am not sure how much difference they would make for me since I am left handed and use my left hand to grab my moon clip and reload. Do you still think they are worth a try?

Javier,

I have a set of JM's for an N frame if you want to try them to see if you like the smooth grips..

[Cherryriver]

I like the Miculek grips a lot and like to use them for IDPA and ICORE with lighter .38 loads typical in those disciplines. They help you get a straight, consistent grip quickly and have a less-round cross-section that improves your sense of where the gun's pointing.

But in major power guns like 625s, you may find the thinness that so helps the speed and instinctive pointing also lets the gun beat up your hand.

I've been a carpenter for decades and not exactly soft-handed, but a range session of a couple of hundred rounds of .45ACP in a 625 with Miculeks might leave your hand sore. Your situation may vary, of course.

The takeaway should be, though, as mentioned above, find the handles that let you get that consistent hold and keep the gun from shifting around once you start firing. If you have to sort of joggle the gun between shots to resettle your grip, then you're not going to get the best results.

[COF]

343, as a LHWG I can tell you all of the fundamentals for revolver shooting apply whether right or left handed, except the mechanics of the reload. Dan's advice is dead on regardless of which hand you're using, it's just how you get from empty to full. If you search this forum and you-tube, you can find descriptions and videos showing LHWG reloads. Just like right hand reloads, there are a lot of variations. Try the different techniques and see what works the best for you and practice, practice, practice, practice...I'm sure you get the drift.

Jerry

[Matt Griffin]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned: finger strength. With a revolver, it does matter. Try dryfiring six times, then count to two, six more, etc. until you get up in the 30s. You'll see that you quickly get tired and probably can't pull the trigger nearly as quickly once you get up into the fourth string of six or so. I time my dryfires and can see the hundredths drop off as I get over my winter break, I usually start at .19 being the best and work my way down to .16 and after a month of dryfire.

H.

[No.343]

You guys bring up some great points. I know that it takes me three steps to do a reload. I usually bring the gun down to waist level and I'm wondering if keeping the gun chest high might make a difference.

I shot a match with something like 38 rounds in a stage and experienced my finger getting tired towards the end of the stage. I normally shoot 90 - 95% of the available points now, but I'm going to look and see if I drop more points towards the end of the stage.

[Blueridge]

I have two comments that I would like to make on this topic. First is that starting the trigger pull before sights are aligned on a target can be a good thing. The challenge is that you have to be comfortable with when the shot breaks. The sights should come into alignment just before the shot breaks. Too early or too late and of course the shot does not go where you want. Just as people suggest that reloads should be made on the move, starting the trigger pull before the sights align on the next target can save you time.

The second thing I would suggest is to engage targets as you see them. This may sound like something everyone does, but I have found that this is not the case. Many shooters will only engage targets out to a particular distance, if they can engage the further targets at another point in the stage. If you engage all targets that you can shoot from multiple positions when you first see them, you always have the option of engaging them again if necessary. If you get good shots on them the first time you can pass them by later.

neither of these comments may be "general wisdom", but they are options that I like.

[Matt Griffin]

I do agree on taking long shots when the stage breakdown permits, I also like to plan my stages so that I have extra shots on steel if necessary. Ultimately though, you should really work on never, ever missing, fast. ;-)

H.

[atlscrog]

Javier,

I have a couple of the Hougue smooth wood with finger grooves if you would like to try them while here in GA.

Why don't you come to our Sunday night shoot in Cumming this Sunday night? That way you can get all set up for Cherokee on the 13th.

Scott

[Viggen]

You guys bring up some great points. I know that it takes me three steps to do a reload. I usually bring the gun down to waist level and I'm wondering if keeping the gun chest high might make a difference.

I shot a match with something like 38 rounds in a stage and experienced my finger getting tired towards the end of the stage. I normally shoot 90 - 95% of the available points now, but I'm going to look and see if I drop more points towards the end of the stage.

Being able to reload in a high, medium, or low position may be useful at times, depending on the course of fire - an example being seated and shooting from a vehicle. From a movement perspective, put it on the clock. Likely you will find the most reliable reload brings the load down toward the lower position.

As far as reloading on the move - focus on getting to the next shooting position and reloading - the movement being the dominant focus, rather than focusing on reloading and then getting to the next shooting position. To test this out for yourself you have to put it on the clock. Test on the clock. The clock will tell the tale. Doesn't matter what you feel, the timer will tell you what actually works.

As to when to begin your trigger pull, that will depend on your skill level with the revolver. I think you will find that those toward the top of the pile come onto the trigger before the target, depending on the situation and distance and stage complexity, etc.

With you shooting 90-95%, do the shooters who come in ahead of you beat you with speed or points?

When sorting out technique, always test against the timer.

Just some opinions.

[No.343]

You guys bring up some great points. I know that it takes me three steps to do a reload. I usually bring the gun down to waist level and I'm wondering if keeping the gun chest high might make a difference.

I shot a match with something like 38 rounds in a stage and experienced my finger getting tired towards the end of the stage. I normally shoot 90 - 95% of the available points now, but I'm going to look and see if I drop more points towards the end of the stage.

Being able to reload in a high, medium, or low position may be useful at times, depending on the course of fire - an example being seated and shooting from a vehicle. From a movement perspective, put it on the clock. Likely you will find the most reliable reload brings the load down toward the lower position.

As far as reloading on the move - focus on getting to the next shooting position and reloading - the movement being the dominant focus, rather than focusing on reloading and then getting to the next shooting position. To test this out for yourself you have to put it on the clock. Test on the clock. The clock will tell the tale. Doesn't matter what you feel, the timer will tell you what actually works.

As to when to begin your trigger pull, that will depend on your skill level with the revolver. I think you will find that those toward the top of the pile come onto the trigger before the target, depending on the situation and distance and stage complexity, etc.

With you shooting 90-95%, do the shooters who come in ahead of you beat you with speed or points?

When sorting out technique, always test against the timer.

Just some opinions.

If I keep my head I always loose on speed. I'm the slowest kid on the block.

[No.343]

Here is what I gathered from the great advice you guys gave me so far. This sounds like a checklist of things to practice.

1. Investigate grips. I am running the stock grip on my 625. I dislike finger grooves, so I ground off the finger grooves. Yes I am that kind of cheap. I haven't found any reason to buy "nice" ones yet. I'll be looking for easier reloads, but have been warned that the recoil might feel worse.

2. Polish the chambers on the cylinder. I don't think I had any problems there, but sometimes when inserting a new moonclip at an angle the rounds just seem like they get stuck. Now this is with my dummy rounds and it seems like the bullets are pushed in slightly. I am out of town and don't have a bullet puller, so I can't fix that yet.

3. Become a better shot. I'll never master this, but will keep trying.

4. Learn to count to six.

5. "plan your reloads to get there with enough rounds in the gun to deal with it" Those sound like words to live by.

6. "muttering obscenities while stuffing fresh sixes in the gun"

7. "...divorce your trigger finger from the rest of your hands and let it work completely separately from everything else."

8. "Don't start pulling the trigger until the sights are on the target." There seems to be some discussion of this item, but considering the source, it goes on the list.

9. "Once you start pulling the trigger, do not vary your pull speed until the gun fires." Do you use the same speed of trigger pull on every shot regardless of difficulty?

10. Strategize, move smoothly, and economize your motion. I can work on these for the rest of my life.

11. Always shoot for A's. Maybe I should move this one to the top of the list. I usually do this, but on targets with no-shoots or targets with off balance positions I shoot center of mass of the "easy" part. Should I make the effort to gamble on shooting while off balance more often for a point or two?

12. Do lots of reloads but don't do anything unethical like practice. Learn to do a reload on two steps. That's gonna be hard.

13. Work on finger strength. I need to do this for my weak hand too.

14. Don't be afraid to take a longer shot to make the stage flow better.

15. Learn to reload with the revo high, medium and low.

You guys are great. Thanks

[Chris Christian]

343... Quick thought on shooting As. If you're shooting USPSA with a Major caliber (which it sounds like you are) a fast C will normally score better than a slow A. In IDPA the A hits (O Zone in this different scoring system) are preferred, unless the targets are beyond 20 yards, in which case a fast -1 normally beats a slow O. I primarily shoot IDPA in Stock Service Revolver (Minor caliber)although I do shoot the same rig in USPSA for some outside the box practice. I stick with the shoot As there... but if I was running Major I would speed up and not worry too much about Cs.

Chris Christian