How do we catch the GM's?

[MarkCO]

Let's be real here.

Being a GM in practical shooting is not 1/10th as difficult as becoming a pro baseball player.

Sure, genetics plays a role in things. You'll have a hard time convincing me that only genetically superior people can become GMs in USPSA.

Not sure I agree, there are LOTS of stories of average athletic ability people slugging away and making it into the majors. Dedication is paramount. There are just about 1 million adults that play baseball in an organized fashion and about 1200 of them play in the majors every year... 0.12% There are about 400,000 adults that shoot action pistol matches every year and about 200 of them (active) are GMs... 0.05%.

In baseball, evey aspiring athlete has to rely on a team and a manager taking a chance on them. In action pistol, it is ALL self directed. I do beleive there is a decent sized percentage of the shooting population, given all the drive and training, money and time, would never make GM. I raced in the lower ranks of NASCAR and NHRA for many years, doing very well, thank-you, but even with all the determination and money, some people do not have the physical attributes to excel in sport. If you think that is all bunk, explain why there is a HUGE disparity in men and women GMs. Don't tell me they don't have the desire to make GM.

I am still going to start testing doughnuts next month.

Edited February 24, 2010 by MarkCO

[Jake Di Vita]

There are about 400,000 adults that shoot action pistol matches every year and about 200 of them (active) are GMs

Can you tell me where you got those figures? Because 400,000 active shooters sounds a wee bit on the high side to me. Also consider even IF that is an accurate number - the vast majority of people do it as a hobby with no desire to become GM.

Shooting is not an incredibly physically driven sport, especially when compared to baseball, football, etc. The vast majority of actual shooting ability is skill - in other words it is controlled by your central nervous system.

Trying to compare men against women is not really an accurate comparison. I believe the reason there aren't female GMs has a lot to do with overall strength and the fact that not nearly as many women shoot as men. Although determination is ultimately the biggest factor.

In regards to this:

I do beleive there is a decent sized percentage of the shooting population, given all the drive and training, money and time, would never make GM.

I believe that is one of the most bleak and inaccurate claims I've seen in a long time.

I'll use me as an example. I have very little genetic talent. When I decided I wanted to become a GM, I accomplished that by spending over 40 hours a week with a gun in my hands. I can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me they want to be a GM but they are stuck in a rut. When I ask them how an average day goes for them, few are over an hour of dry fire with most being 15 minutes or less (usually on a 3 times a week schedule - although sometimes they miss it because American Idol is on). Duh! Of course your stuck. 40 hours a week comes out to just under 6 hours a day on average. In other words, outside of work and a very small amount of sleep, my life was shooting. So until I have people coming to me saying "Jake, I spent 6 hours a day every day - rain, sun, sleet, hurricane, apocalypse - practicing and still have not become a GM" I will say that is all bunk.

I've dry fired until my hands have bled on several occasions. I doubt many other people can say that. (Which is probably a good thing, because I'm crazy and I know it lol)

So yes, it is all about determination. If you want it bad enough - make it happen and be unreasonable.

[Jake Di Vita]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLN2k0b3g70&feature=player_embedded

[Strick]

Most excellent thread. I am basically in the same position, I am working on being a competitive Master in IDPA and shooting more USPSA now. I am not classified yet but should shake out in the B class (with one of the initial 4 classifiers being a very old time in the 20% range). I am lucky to have a few good shooters to shoot with often at matches and what I have read so far pretty much backs up what I have been thinking for a while now.

[Nate]

You may already be a GM at 8 yards. Start moving targets back and covering them with no shoots and develop your skills. Now get rid of time not shooting. Viola GM.

[benos]

I'm reading an excellent book, The Talent Code.

Regarding reaching a level of national or world class competence in any skill - requires approximately 10,000 hours (or ten years) of committed, focused, "deep practice."

So "go and practice."

[Flyin40]

Funny, you've only actually heard from one GM, so far... Scott's spot on - everyone has things they're working on and things that could use improvement (even top GMs). It's hard to see that, at the moment, because the gap between you and them is pretty wide - but as time goes on, and you learn to see the refinements, you'll see difference.

I assume you'd prefer to not take years to reach your goals? So, there are some things that you can do to take big bites out of the time to absorb the skills you need. A number of them were mentioned by Sean and John above (so consider their inclusion here agreement with those guys):

Seek skilled instruction - you can go the "shoot and analyze your own video" route, comparing that back and forth to vids of GMs, etc, but frankly, that takes a long time and assumes that you're cluing in to the low hanging fruit, etc. Having someone who already knows the skills examine what you're doing, and provide immediate feedback is indispensable. You likely have very fundamental issues that need to be cleaned up before considering moving on to advanced stuff (this is/was typical for most of us), and a skilled instructor can nail those things down for you in very short order. This made the largest jump in my game, especially when I was in the performance range you're at. This beats the living hell out of trying to figure all these things out for yourself via video comparison, etc... It may seem expensive, but consider all the cash you'll spend trying to learn all of these things on your own at the range, and then trying to fix and re-fix bad habits you develop along the course of that work....

Shoot video, have it examined - having video of your performances is definitely priceless for picking up on issues that you encounter as you shoot stages, etc. You'll pick up on some things, but having a skilled instructor (perhaps the same one you used for live instruction) look it over will yield a large amount of information, as well. Forum member Jake Di Vita offers this as a service - I do the same for my students, and would be willing to work something out with you, if that's the route you want to go.

Examine video of GMs - learning stage breakdown/strategy is hard to do, as it takes seeing a lot of stages, and seeing how the guys that are beating everyone else are doing it. Sometimes there's no magic, sometimes they find holes, sometimes they find very efficient routes that otherwise get overlooked. If you can find video of stages that shows GMs running them as well as shooters in the other classes, you can start to pick up on the general differences in approach and actual shooting. Competition DVD's coverage of the 2007 Double Tap has some good footage in this format. Other DVDs I've found useful are Matt Burkett's IPSC Strategies DVD, and Saul Kirsch's World Shoot and Nationals videos. You want to watch these for specific things, though, and not just be awed Notice how they enter and exit positions, notice how they route themselves through a stage and which targets they pick up where (and ask yourself why). Notice how many points they shoot (if the scores are shown), and how many extra shots they take. Compare back to your videos. Notice the tempo of their stage - specifically the difference between the shooting and non-shooting portions, etc. See if you can start to see the mistakes or rough spots in even the stage winner's performance.

Strive to take no extra shots - extra shots cost you (usually) 2-3 tenths each, sometimes more. Get your job done right the first time.

Work on your head - find a good mental game program and start using it. A lot of folks on the forum are using Lanny Bassham's approach. I like Tom Kubistant's book, myself. There are others out there, too. At the top level, this is a mental game, like most other sports. If you don't start addressing the things you say to yourself in your head, and the thoughts you let creep through there, you will never advance to your fullest ability.

Shoot As - one hallmark of top GMs is that they drop very very few points. You need points to have something to divide by time. Shooting points tends to feel slow while you're shooting the stage, but in the end, it actually leads to smoothness. There will be times, usually when you're pushing on speed, that you'll start dropping points - it's ok to make mistakes in local matches, practice sessions, etc - but you'll really want to work on pulling the points back in while maintaining pace.

Push on yourself in practice - push on your practice drills hard, until the wheels fall off. Then back off a hair until you can nail it again. Make that your new 100% mark. Push on that again the next time you shoot the drill. Make loud mistakes and risk it all in practice - you want to really know the edges of your skill envelope, and push on them all the time.

Practice a wide variety of skills - definitely hammer on your weaknesses, but be sure that that's not all you're doing. Pick two or three, and spend half or 2/3 of your practice on them, but be sure to practice a wide variety of general shooting skills with the rest of your time. This will instill confidence in your ability to tackle any shooting challenge that gets thrown your way.

Practice hard shots

Dry fire is your friend - shooting live ammo is indispensable, but dry fire is better for refining skills, for various reasons, and can be done in far shorter timeframes than live fire practice (and far less expensively). I made it to A with very, very little live fire practice, and made GM still leaning heavily on dry fire for progress in basic shooting skills.

Live fire is your friend - but be smart about it. Don't just flail around on the range for the sake of burning ammo. Have a plan, work drills that address your goals. Be sure to have fun, too - otherwise, you won't want to be there. John's .22 practice seems pretty smart - I haven't had a chance to try that route, myself. In the end, though, nothing will replace stick time on your match gun with match PF ammo...

Squad and shoot with better shooters - specifically, the highest skilled shooters you can. Video them. Ask questions (though, try not to be annoying). Observe, observe, observe. Simply being around better shooters will have a tendency to raise your game, just through osmosis, but take full advantage of it, if you can. I think you'll find most folks are happy to help you out. Realize, though, that just because someone has an M or a GM next to their name doesn't mean they're the "be all, end all", even if they hold a National or World Champion title (though you might want to pay a little more attention to those guys). They don't always have the right answers - so don't take most things as "absolutes". You may actually have better answers already on some topics, but perhaps don't yet have the skills to execute as well as they do...

Work on your general fitness level - there are a number of examples of top GMs who are not physically fit. I'm aware of that. However, this is increasingly a physical game. Flexibility, power, speed, coordination, balance - these are all things that are intrinsically improved by improving your fitness. There's no reason NOT to do it, other than being lazy. It absolutely will not harm your game, worst case - and a number of us have found it makes a profound positive difference on your ability to move quickly and precisely, and also in your stamina through a long day of shooting (which translates directly into better mental and physical performance through the whole day). This game is all about the shooting - being fit without being a solid shooter won't help you all that much. But, in the end, being fit and being a solid shooter will put you in a better overall position than a real storage tank with the same shooting skills....

Hope that helps

Dave

(ETA - I started this post about an hour ago, and some things snuck in in between.... Jake makes solid points, too... And, Jake is a GM - so, you've now heard from three....)

Excellent post XRE. Mods should pin this in the beginner forums under "So you want to become a GM". One of the best post I have read in a long time.

+1 on the instruction, it will speed the learning curve up and save time. Personally for me I have thought alot about training and prefer the longer trial and error method. Its just my personality and I enjoy the road to the goal more than the goal itself.

Flyin

[MarkCO]

Jake, the 400K number came from an article I read from the NSSF a few years ago. They added up NRA, PPC, USPSA, IDPA, GSSF and a myriad of individual clubs that have their own style matches.

As far as a comparison to baseball, pretty close. 3 hours standing around and about 2 minutes of action for the average pro during a game. Highly skill oriented in a compressed timeframe with a lot of mental. Kruk, Valenzula, heck Ruth, were not exactly physically perfect.

You might not like the statement that there is a decent sized percentage of the shooting population that can not make GM, but your experience is anecdotal at best and how can it be inaccurate?

[Flexmoney]

You might not like the statement that there is a decent sized percentage of the shooting population that can not make GM, but your experience is anecdotal at best and how can it be inaccurate?

How is Jake's experience "anecdotal" ?

[kimberacp]

all very good advice..."just do it"!

but be ready to give up of alot of everything else in your personally life...for many, many, many years

[MarkCO]

You might not like the statement that there is a decent sized percentage of the shooting population that can not make GM, but your experience is anecdotal at best and how can it be inaccurate?

How is Jake's experience "anecdotal" ?

Using one sample and applying it to the general pool is called anecdotal. Applying a small sample to the general pool is called extrapolation.

From the Wiki: Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. For example "my grandfather smoked like a chimney and died healthy in a car crash at the age of 99" does not disprove the proposition that "smoking markedly increases the probability of cancer and heart disease at a relatively early age". In this case, the evidence may itself be true, but does not warrant the conclusion.

[Jake Di Vita]

Mark,

Once again, until I have people telling me that they practice 6 hours a day and just can't improve, I just don't agree with it.

Most people will never be GMs...sure. The reason is because most people just aren't willing to sacrifice everything else in their life to get there. This is not anecdotal evidence. It's pretty much common knowledge that if you want to be great at something, you must commit to it. I've talked with, coached, and competed alongside hundreds upon hundreds on shooters since I came into this sport. I have NEVER seen nor heard of anyone practicing 6 hours a day that didn't get better. Have you? Didn't think so.

I don't really understand what you are arguing here? If you are telling me that there are perfectly capable people that will never become a GM no matter how much effort they will put into it, I'm telling you that you're flat wrong and there is no evidence what-so-ever that supports that claim.

Although I do find it amusing that 15 years of being involved with a sport, shooting several hundred matches, ROing many majors, running a club, and personally training dozens upon dozens of shooters is anecdotal to you.

[Dan Hefta]

The only way that I could ever catch a GM... is in my Hemi Powered Dodge 2500. I will apologize in advance.

[Bill Schwab]

Most people will never be GMs...sure. The reason is because most people just aren't willing to sacrifice everything else in their life to get there. This is not anecdotal evidence. It's pretty much common knowledge that if you want to be great at something, you must commit to it. I've talked with, coached, and competed alongside hundreds upon hundreds on shooters since I came into this sport. I have NEVER seen nor heard of anyone practicing 6 hours a day that didn't get better.

Amen to that!

[Flexmoney]

Mark,

Thank you for clarifying your use of the term "anecdotal"...because it sure sounded like you were suggesting Jake's experience was hearsay (which is the 1st definition given at the source you quoted).

[MarkCO]

Mark,

Thank you for clarifying your use of the term "anecdotal"...because it sure sounded like you were suggesting Jake's experience was hearsay (which is the 1st definition given at the source you quoted).

No worries, should have made that clear in my original post. Obviously Jake knows what he did, and should be commended for it, so no disparagement implied in any manner.

[Ron Ankeny]

OK, I have to ask...are we even on the same page with the term GM? When the OP asked about catching the GM's, are we looking at the top shooters in the sport or at the run of the mill GM at a club match? Are you guys talking about being one of those GM shooters that could reasonably be expected to be in the top five at the Nationals year in and year out?

[lugnut]

Run of the mill GM??? I wouldn't mind being a run of the mill M at this point! I know, I know- it's just hard work and dedication.

[dsb45acp]

Slight thread drift: Does anyone think that there comes a time when you just don't have the physical attributes any more (because of age, poor eyesight, decreased speed/reaction time/endurance/strength, etc.) to make GM? Or do you believe it is attainable at any age given the right amount of time and dedication?

Edited February 25, 2010 by dsb45acp

[Jman]

It is attainable. It is less likely as we grow older. But still, if one can see enough and move well enough it's attainable.

All a matter of focused, high quality daily training. And that, with encroaching age becomes less likely. If I, for example devout more time to

the game I'm taking time away from things I enjoy as much as shooting. Variety as they say, is the spice of life. I want to do everything.

Jim

[AWLAZS]

I had been a B class shooter for ever. I decided I wanted to move up. I looked here for help. I read a lot.

I put my time in with dry fire and live fire. I looked at everything I did from a shooters perspective looking for shooting skills. I shot on the move while I did yard work. I entered and exited positions while I was at the mall.

I visualize myself shooting.

I help other people with their shooting. I have found myself telling people to do things that I have stopped doing.

I made GM. Its tougher being there then getting there.

Are some people going to make it easier then other? Sure they are. Are some people going to try forever and not make it? Yup. They never get past the trying.

Like Jake said it takes a lot of time. No American Idol breaks.

[Bshooter]

I started in USPSA over twenty years ago. I was 41 at the time and was a D class shooter. I became hooked on the sport and worked hard, purchased up to date equipment and practiced. I had the luxury of having a shooting range in my back yard. I moved up to B class rather quickly. The first year I attended the Limited Nationals in Fredrickburg, VA I shot about 30,000 rounds in practice. I finally got to A class in Limited and Limited 10.

Getting to be a Master or Grandmaster has only been a dream. How many M or GM do you see that made it over 50? I am now 61 and have slowed way down. I mainly shoot Single Stack now because I really enjoy it. I shoot with a young (24 years old) sheriffs deputy quite often and he thanks me for pushing him in a match. I don't think I ever have pushed anyone but I enjoy the compliment.

If you never make GM or even M, keep shooting. Help a youngster out who can't afford the sport. I have offered equipment, ammo, and entry fees to youngsters to get them started. I'll never make GM but I sure hope I can help someone who will.

Bshooter

[Jman]

I started in USPSA over twenty years ago. I was 41 at the time and was a D class shooter. I became hooked on the sport and worked hard, purchased up to date equipment and practiced. I had the luxury of having a shooting range in my back yard. I moved up to B class rather quickly. The first year I attended the Limited Nationals in Fredrickburg, VA I shot about 30,000 rounds in practice. I finally got to A class in Limited and Limited 10.

Getting to be a Master or Grandmaster has only been a dream. How many M or GM do you see that made it over 50? I am now 61 and have slowed way down. I mainly shoot Single Stack now because I really enjoy it. I shoot with a young (24 years old) sheriffs deputy quite often and he thanks me for pushing him in a match. I don't think I ever have pushed anyone but I enjoy the compliment.

If you never make GM or even M, keep shooting. Help a youngster out who can't afford the sport. I have offered equipment, ammo, and entry fees to youngsters to get them started. I'll never make GM but I sure hope I can help someone who will.

Bshooter

Well said. Fine post.

Jim

[badchad]

Does anyone think that there comes a time when you just don't have the physical attributes any more (because of age, poor eyesight, decreased speed/reaction time/endurance/strength, etc.) to make GM?

Heck yeah there is. Unless you die young.

[calishootr]

I used to do all ofthat, knee deep in brass 4 nites a week, dry firing EVERY free moment, was shooting 9 matches a month, and believe it or not, nope, i didnt make GM, or even M, god knows i wanted it, it just isnt in the cards for me, the upside for this is that I am an A class shooter, who now, likes passing on the 20 yrs of knowlege that I have garnered over the yrs in the silly sport(this yr will be 21) I get more out of showing new shooters to our sport the ropes, than any M or GM card would ever give me...