POA / POI help needed

[S391]

I took my M&P 9L out to the range this afternoon to shoot it from a rest and get a good idea where the gun is shooting in relation to my point of aim. Off the rest I am 6-8" high at 25 yards... Off hand I am 6 - 8" low at 25 yards and my groups are in the 4-5" range. Last night I shot my friend's Dan Wesson and I shot a group that you could cover with a quarter right out of the box.

I know that it's the indian not the arrow but I'm starting to get frustrated and I cannot figure out what it going on.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

[G-ManBart]

I've seen a slight change in POI when going from a rest to shooting freestyle, but nothing like the 12" you're describing.

Any chance you're shooting indoors? Most indoor ranges are poorly lit and even if the targets are reasonably well lit, the gun (sights) normally aren't. Combine that with having the gun closer to your eyes from the rest (typical) and suddenly your sight picture just changed.

The unfortunate reality is that the amount of change you're seeing almost certainly can't be in the gun.

When you say you're shooting off hand, do you mean real offhand, as in one hand only?

If you really shot a group at 25yds that you could cover with a quarter (.95"), do whatever you can to buy that gun. The center to center group size would have to be something like .5-.6"....you'll never find another one that shoots that well. In fact, it's so good, probably 99% of the best bullseye guns in the world couldn't manage it other than by chance. R,

[S391]

I've seen a slight change in POI when going from a rest to shooting freestyle, but nothing like the 12" you're describing.

Any chance you're shooting indoors? Most indoor ranges are poorly lit and even if the targets are reasonably well lit, the gun (sights) normally aren't. Combine that with having the gun closer to your eyes from the rest (typical) and suddenly your sight picture just changed.

The unfortunate reality is that the amount of change you're seeing almost certainly can't be in the gun.

When you say you're shooting off hand, do you mean real offhand, as in one hand only?

If you really shot a group at 25yds that you could cover with a quarter (.95"), do whatever you can to buy that gun. The center to center group size would have to be something like .5-.6"....you'll never find another one that shoots that well. In fact, it's so good, probably 99% of the best bullseye guns in the world couldn't manage it other than by chance. R,

Today I was outdoors so lighting was not an issue. When I say off hand I meant that I was using a 2 hand hold like I would use in an IDPA match. I agree that the problem does not lay with the gun.

The group with the revolver was at 10 yards and I'm chalking it up as a fluke but I use it as an indicator of something else going on.

[G-ManBart]

Today I was outdoors so lighting was not an issue. When I say off hand I meant that I was using a 2 hand hold like I would use in an IDPA match. I agree that the problem does not lay with the gun.

The group with the revolver was at 10 yards and I'm chalking it up as a fluke but I use it as an indicator of something else going on.

Well, that kills some of the usual suspects!

I've been doing a bunch of group shooting with my M&P Pro in the last week or so and I'm starting to see what may be a bit of a pattern. If I use a rest (rolled up towel or similar) and use very light grip pressure I do get a group that's a couple of inches above the POA at 25yds. If I use more grip pressure (firm, but not crushing) I'm getting nearly POA/POI (also at 25yds), and the group size drops significantly (from say 4" to 2" give or take). Some of that coule be how the change in grip tension changes my trigger press, so I haven't come to any hard conclusion yet, but it's something you could play around with and see if there's a pattern. My plan has been to fool around with this some more and then see what happens why I shoot freestyle at 25yds using both light and firm grip pressure. Unfortunately, I've been stuck shooting indoors between running folks through qualifications, and the lighting isn't great. I'm hoping for a nicer day to get outside and see if there's any difference.

If you have another shooter of known ability, it might not be a bad idea to get them to shoot a couple of groups with it and see what happens. R,

[Duane Thomas]

Sounds like a serious anticipation of recoil issue.

[Duane Thomas]

I've been doing a bunch of group shooting with my M&P Pro in the last week or so and I'm starting to see what may be a bit of a pattern. If I use a rest (rolled up towel or similar) and use very light grip pressure I do get a group that's a couple of inches above the POA at 25yds. If I use more grip pressure (firm, but not crushing) I'm getting nearly POA/POI (also at 25yds), and the group size drops significantly (from say 4" to 2" give or take). Some of that coule be how the change in grip tension changes my trigger press, so I haven't come to any hard conclusion yet, but it's something you could play around with and see if there's a pattern

Makes sense. The gun is moving while the bullet is travelling down the bore. The lighter you hold the gun, the more it moves before the bullet can exit the barrel, the higher the POI. Conversely, the harder you hold it, the less gun movement, the lower the POI. At distance I can stand there and make the bullet impact lower or higher at will simply by consciously altering my amount of grip pressure up or down, respectively.

[G-ManBart]

I've been doing a bunch of group shooting with my M&P Pro in the last week or so and I'm starting to see what may be a bit of a pattern. If I use a rest (rolled up towel or similar) and use very light grip pressure I do get a group that's a couple of inches above the POA at 25yds. If I use more grip pressure (firm, but not crushing) I'm getting nearly POA/POI (also at 25yds), and the group size drops significantly (from say 4" to 2" give or take). Some of that coule be how the change in grip tension changes my trigger press, so I haven't come to any hard conclusion yet, but it's something you could play around with and see if there's a pattern

Makes sense. The gun is moving while the bullet is travelling down the bore. The lighter you hold the gun, the more it moves before the bullet can exit the barrel, the higher the POI. Conversely, the harder you hold it, the less gun movement, the lower the POI. At distance I can stand there and make the bullet impact lower or higher at will simply by consciously altering my amount of grip pressure up or down, respectively.

I certainly thought of that, but the weird thing is that I don't see the same thing happen when I've tried it with other guns (mostly 1911/2011s). I'll get a slight shift, but not 2" or so. On Thurs I did a function check of my Open gun after a deep cleaning. We were doing our Winter quals/low light so it's at an indoor range. To check zero I put a target at 25yds, rested the magazine basepad and my forearms on the bench and using a firm grip (I know I hold the gun pretty tight under match conditions) put 4 holes in a vertical stack about 1.25"...literally a line. With a 12moa dot I can't do much better than that unless I play with the target size to get it just right. I stood up and fired a fifth shot offhand, with a very relaxed grip and got an absolutely perfect shot off. It was touching the lowest of the 4 I shot from the bench...still a perfect vertical line. At most, that's a difference of 1" in POI from benched, firm grip, to freestyle, relaxed grip. The kicker is that since it's going 1500+fps compared with 900+ fps, the Open gun bullet is the tube a heck of a lot less time, so it's not a great comparison.

Honestly, I've never tried thhis with my Glocks, but now I'm going to. I'm wondering if the polymer frame of the M&P flexing might be a factor. Having seen super high speed video of a Glock firing, the frame does flex a lot (the dust cover nearly hits the barrel and you can see through the frame/slide gap in the middle...it's amazing. There the gun was held in a Ransom Rest, and the bullet was long gone before the barrel had a chance to rise. It may have lifted a tiny amount, but it was very, very small if it did. I'm thinking that maybe hand pressure is so much less resistance than the RR that it's not a good comparison to what we'll experience really shooting. Now if I could get them to do some of that same video of the gun being hand fired, that would really help. R,

[S391]

Ok, the short version is that I had some issues. I spent an afternoon with a good coach and I have been dry firing every night to work on correcting those issues. I went to the range tonight and I didn't have any POI issues. I think I'm on the right track.

Thanks everyone.

[Duane Thomas]

Practice, practice.

[Nik Habicht]

Ok, the short version is that I had some issues. I spent an afternoon with a good coach and I have been dry firing every night to work on correcting those issues. I went to the range tonight and I didn't have any POI issues. I think I'm on the right track.

Thanks everyone.

Something else I've learned from experience: Don't make the decision that there's a problem off of one range session. Everyone has an off day. If it goes on and on, then you start looking at the variables: Gun, Ammo, and shooter....

[S391]

Practice, practice.

Correct practice, correct practice I was practicing..... But I was doing it incorrectly.

[S391]

Ok, the short version is that I had some issues. I spent an afternoon with a good coach and I have been dry firing every night to work on correcting those issues. I went to the range tonight and I didn't have any POI issues. I think I'm on the right track.

Thanks everyone.

Something else I've learned from experience: Don't make the decision that there's a problem off of one range session. Everyone has an off day. If it goes on and on, then you start looking at the variables: Gun, Ammo, and shooter....

the one day at the range was a confirmation of problems that have existed for several months....... It was solid proof that I needed to help me try and figure out what was going on.

[GForceLizard]

I suspect that when I shoot my Glock 17 off a sandbag rest (dust cover on bag) it shoots a higher POI than it does with a 2 handed unsupported hold. I have also seen differences between POI going from an indoor to outdoor range. With my eyes the POI indoors is higher. YMMV, and I need to do more shooting.

Edited March 4, 2010 by GForceLizard

[Duane Thomas]

I suspect that when I shoot my Glock 17 off a sandbag rest (dust cover on bag) it shoots a higher POI than it does with a 2 handed unsupported hold

Me too, but the difference is only about an inch at 50 feet.

[lugnut]

Something else I've learned from experience: Don't make the decision that there's a problem off of one range session. Everyone has an off day. If it goes on and on, then you start looking at the variables: Gun, Ammo, and shooter....

I've learned that lesson. Same gun, different day and groups move. Adj sights one way. Then go back another day and have to move the sights back! I'm talking an inch or so +/- at 50 ft + usually.

FWIW- I never sight or shoot my gun off a rest. I guess I assume if the gun can group at 50ft/25 yds freestyle/two hands why bother since I never actually shoot that way... Depending on the day if I can get a ~2" group at 50' and maybe 3-4" at 25yds I'm happy. I usually do a couple groups of 10 or so. Come to think of it... I haven't done much group shooting in a while... thanks for the reminder!