I need help with my shooting grip

[CocoBolo]

While you are trying all of this stuff I'd like you to humor me and try using both ear plugs and ear muffs together. I RO a lot and see a lot of beginners with the same issue, and I think they are just not comfortable with the gun. This behavior gets worse when shooting thru ports and barrels so my take is the noise has a bearing on it. I strugged quite a while till I got very comfortable with shooting the gun and now for the most part I don't hear the shots or feel any concious recoil as my focus is on the next target. Judging from the picture you have more than adequate strength to hold the gun, or you are shooting some very bad loads.

I would also suggest the infamous bill drill where you set a target 5 yards away and shoot six shots fast as you can into the target, with A's being the preference. When you can beat 3 seconds with all A's you will have cured your grip problem.

As you can see in the Avatar my grip probably needs some work, maybe a little more clock wise. I was looking at the hottie taking the picture not at the dot, so my head is out of place.

Edited July 6, 2010 by CocoBolo

[K37]

10 Ring, I'll try that, hopefully tomorrow. I hope this fixes it, because it's extremely frustrating.

CocoBolo, I definitely have a blinking problem when I'm not completely focused on it which I know will eventually go away with continued work. I do double up on hearing protection and it helps considerably. I'm going to try the bill drills at the next range along with 10ring's advice.

[T W Boomswitch]

I love this thread. I've been having the same problems with my XDm slipping up out of my support hand. I tried skate tape, then a grittier skate tape and only rubbed my left palm until it was bleeding. After reading this thread, I believe I'm too stiff from my wrists through my shoulders because I'm trying to muscle the pistol. My shot group is all over the place because (I believe after loading some dummy rounds) that I'm anticipating the recoil by tensing up everything in my upper body. Hopefully this helps at the range.

I just put the rubber grip tape kit from Powder River on my XDm & I am very impressed. You might get some extra traction from this without it digging into your hand.

[K37]

Thanks, will try

[ER_STL]

In my journey to perfect my grip I've noticed a few things.

First, it's simple physics that unless you apply some sort of isometric tension (push-pull or side-to-side compression), the support hand must rely on friction to keep it anchored to the gun and strong hand. This of course explains the popularity of aggressively stippled or grip-taped guns. The only people I see using this grip that don't recommend stippling or grip-tape are 1911 and CZ shooters. They usually have adequately textured grips on their guns and the rounded shape of the grip itself allows the support hand to get a measurable amount of real-estate behind the gun (which lessens the need for support hand strength since it's accepting some of the recoil directly).

Second, many of the accomplished shooters you see out there shooting production guns have meaty hands. That helps them get a good patch of contact between their support hand and the grip of the gun. Those of us who don't have such hands sometimes end up with inadequate pressure against the gun from the support hand, which allows the gun to rotate freely in it during recoil. As has been mentioned in this thread already, I've found that on guns like the Glock I need to bring my support elbow up and out a bit, which in turn really drives the meat of the support hand thumb into the gun. Without this I have a difficult time clamping down on the gun with my support hand.

Third, don't underestimate the importance of grip-strength. Along with meaty hands, many good shooters also have very strong hands. When they talk about not overgripping the gun and 60/40 and all that, realize that their "60" is closer to the average person's "100". :-) I've found that since I've started building my grip (with CoC grippers), my shooting has improved and my grip has started to become more consistent.

Finally, some guns just fit you better than others and it takes modifications to the overall technique to adapt to a particular gun. On a CZ where I can get my support and behind the gun I find that I rely less on grip strength and more on bent elbows and taught wrists. On flat, slippery Glocks and M&Ps I need a stronger support hand grip and adequate friction.

Just a few random thoughts...

[Sac Law Man]

What happens many times is the shooter grips the gun by placing the fingers of his support hand under the trigger guard and around the fingers of the strong first, then closes the rest of the hand around the grip. While this may work for some, what happens is the shooter does not develope good contact with the grip and the meat of his support hand. Thats why when the shooter fires, it is the support hand palm that comes off the gun. Try gripping the gun by fitting your support hand palm into the grip first, then wrap your fingers around the grip. Fire shots like this and see if it helps.. My guess is it will. Powders and stick-em type stuff is not the answer,, they are band-aids..

[sherpa]

I asked this in another post, but will ask here just the same...

Which 'part of the support hand palms' contacts the grip panel.... is it only the meaty part of the thumb muscle that contacts the upper grip panel (below the safety), OR is it also important to have the meaty part of the pinky finger contacting the lower part of the grip panel?

[Aloha Robert]

In my journey to perfect my grip I've noticed a few things.

First, it's simple physics that unless you apply some sort of isometric tension (push-pull or side-to-side compression), the support hand must rely on friction to keep it anchored to the gun and strong hand. This of course explains the popularity of aggressively stippled or grip-taped guns. The only people I see using this grip that don't recommend stippling or grip-tape are 1911 and CZ shooters. They usually have adequately textured grips on their guns and the rounded shape of the grip itself allows the support hand to get a measurable amount of real-estate behind the gun (which lessens the need for support hand strength since it's accepting some of the recoil directly).

Actually this is not quite correct or always true. I think this is one of the biggest myths in shooting. While the most common techniques employ friction, it is not necessary at all in some situations. And in fact requires strength and lots of practice.

For example when using a properly fitted grip assist such as a *thumb rest [generic]*(in Open), you can have virtually no friction and maintain an excellent strong grip.

And you need vitually no side to side pressure.

You can get almost same effect using thumb over thumb technique in Limited.

Believe it or not, I prep my grip with Tetra Oil to REDUCE friction so your hand slides quickly to the correct position. And yes I have a degree in Physics so I know about friction. If your hand is in right position you need almost no friction.

[ER_STL]

Actually this is not quite correct or always true. I think this is one of the biggest myths in shooting. While the most common techniques employ friction, it is not necessary at all in some situations. And in fact requires strength and lots of practice.

For example when using a properly fitted grip assist such as a *thumb rest [generic]*(in Open), you can have virtually no friction and maintain an excellent strong grip.

And you need vitually no side to side pressure.

You can get almost same effect using thumb over thumb technique in Limited.

Believe it or not, I prep my grip with Tetra Oil to REDUCE friction so your hand slides quickly to the correct position. And yes I have a degree in Physics so I know about friction. If your hand is in right position you need almost no friction.

I was referring to more of a production type gun like your standard Glock, M&P, or in the case of the OP, his H&K P30. I don't have any experience with Open guns but I had an IPSC shooter (with whom I was training) let me run a magazine through his grippy, all-steel 1911 chambered in 9mm (147gr load). I think my Buckmark .22 has more recoil.

Would it be a fair statement to say that your grip-technique is more important on a gun like the OP's P30 shooting factory or full-powered ammo than it is on a race gun with loaded ammo? In my example above I literally couldn't lose the front (fiber-optic) sight and that was just a single magazine through it. It was that easy to shoot. My naked, stock G19 by contrast with factory 115gr felt snappy after it.

[Duane Thomas]

The only people I see using this grip that don't recommend stippling or grip-tape are 1911 and CZ shooters.

Dave Sevigny runs no grip tape at all on his multi-national championship winning Glock 34.

Neither do I on my own G34 (or my 17, or my 19, for that matter). Believe me, I've experimented extensively with grip tape, and finally discovered (1) it was causing me problems with my hand not being able to slide smoothly into place on the draw, (2) it just wasn't necessary to get the gun tracking consistently.

[Aloha Robert]

The only people I see using this grip that don't recommend stippling or grip-tape are 1911 and CZ shooters.

Dave Sevigny runs no grip tape at all on his multi-national championship winning Glock 34.

Neither do I on my own G34 (or my 17, or my 19, for that matter). Believe me, I've experimented extensively with grip tape, and finally discovered (1) it was causing me problems with my hand not being able to slide smoothly into place on the draw, (2) it just wasn't necessary to get the gun tracking consistently.

++s for Duane for figuring out what others have not, Whether it be a Race Gun with a *thumb rest [generic]*, a Limited STI or a production gun, the secret is NOT to rely on friction for control. Fit of Gun in Hand trumps all friction devices by a long shot. Duane has also figured out the less friction means faster draw and more consistent grip. If you have to use a lot of friction tape, your gun is probably not fitting right. (Or you insist on using old school, forced shoulder aduction and bilateral hand presure to controil recoil)

That being said, if you are stuck with a pistol that doesnt give a great fit to YOUR own hand, then friction tape is a workaround less optimal solution.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[ck1]

Cool thread.

Gotta say I'm a fan of the RTF2 texture or grip-tape on my guns though (the 100% humidity we shoot in all summer where I'm located will change some minds).

[ER_STL]

From looking at still photos of Dave Sevigny I suspect he doesn't need grip-tape because he can apply a very firm grip to the gun and generate enough friction between it and his support hand. I too can do this with my G19 if I take my time, wedge my strong hand (and gun) into my support hand, and then grip the snot out of it. If I do that I can run a Bill Drill without losing support hand traction. But it seems to take just the right conditions to make it happen.

If friction isn't the means by which the support hand stays mated to the gun - and you're not getting substantial traction behind the gun - then what makes the grip work? Is the gun sliding around? Is it acceptable to have the gun swimming around in your support hand to some degree? When I watch more advanced shooters in slow-motion it seems like the gun is glued to their support hands.

When I took my first (and only) training class and I learned the grip, I was using my G19 stock, without any tape. The gun was sliding all over the place in my hands. I was able to keep multiple hits on an 10" plate at 8 yards but it felt like I had no control over the gun. The guy who was training me suggested tape and he too had it (TruGrip) on his Glocks.

I understand where the OP might be coming from. When I'm shooting in the Winter and my hands are cold and dry it seems like it doesn't matter how hard I grip the gun with my support hand - it will still work lose after a few shots. Full power and +p+ stuff is out of the question. The only way I can keep my hands together in those conditions is either by using tape or some sort of pressure/tension.

[jaywhy]

Try some pro grip.

Where do you get "Pro Grip?

[gng4life]

Get it here: http://shootersconnectionstore.com/Search.aspx?k=progrip

[Flexmoney]

I like grip tape.

It is one of the (very) few things I change from stock on my Glocks.

With the idea to cam the support hand, there needs to be a way to get that benefit onto the gun. I want that interface to be as high on the gun as I can get (nearer the slide).

For me, it's the meaty part of the thumb/palm of the support hand. I get that high on the grip. That is where I want my grip tape. That allows the the meaty part of my cammed support hand to interact with the gun.

[sherpa]

just a clarification... I surmise most here advice having the main contact of the support palm at the side of the grip panel, am I right? Whereas in page 41 of BE's book (and also from Mike Seeklander's tips), I noticed having enough of the meaty part of the support hand at the backstrap. I tried this and it worked well in 2 areas:

1. it helped me align the sights when I raise the gun, in contrast to having them pointing slightly left if I had the meaty part of my palm at the support side of the grip.

2. sight recovery was great, and would come back aligned.

Doesn't anyone use this grip?

My 2 problems now though are how to do this fast enough (i.e. getting to set the meaty part of my palm to reach the backstrap) after the draw, even after raising my strong thumb... and after doing so, the 2nd knuckle of my support index finger rests under the left of the trigger guard (no longer at the right when just contacting the side grip panel). Though this may be another topic.

Edited September 10, 2010 by sherpa

[benos]

My 2 problems now though are how to do this fast enough (i.e. getting to set the meaty part of my palm to reach the backstrap) after the draw, even after raising my strong thumb... and after doing so, the 2nd knuckle of my support index finger rests under the left of the trigger guard (no longer at the right when just contacting the side grip panel). Though this may be another topic.

"Solving" problem 1 will just require lots of dry drawing practice - learn to get that weak hand into position as quickly as possible. And problem 2 may not be a problem, because as you said, the sights are tracking consistently.

be

[sherpa]

My 2 problems now though are how to do this fast enough (i.e. getting to set the meaty part of my palm to reach the backstrap) after the draw, even after raising my strong thumb... and after doing so, the 2nd knuckle of my support index finger rests under the left of the trigger guard (no longer at the right when just contacting the side grip panel). Though this may be another topic.

"Solving" problem 1 will just require lots of dry drawing practice - learn to get that weak hand into position as quickly as possible. And problem 2 may not be a problem, because as you said, the sights are tracking consistently.

be

Thanks Brian. At first I was thinking it was incorrect to have my support index finger's 2nd knuckle under the left of the trigger guard, as it felt ackward, like my hands were way too far back at the gun. But come to think of it, I guess what matters is the sight recovery, and these should just be more of challenges that I just need to work on to get used to.

One quick question when setting your support hand. Do you start off first by putting your finger under the trigger guard then wrapping your hand back to the backstrap, OR do you start at the backstrap and wrap your fingers over your strong hand?

Thanks again!

[Bouttime]

I am pretty new at this, but from the hands at side position I bring my left hand across the lower abdoman to meet the right hand.

From the surrender position I come down and across. If anyone have any other suggestions let me know. My draw is 1.4 sec. but keep in

mind I am little old.

[Mbauer67]

This is a great thread, thanks for all of the excellent info everyone.

[benos]

My 2 problems now though are how to do this fast enough (i.e. getting to set the meaty part of my palm to reach the backstrap) after the draw, even after raising my strong thumb... and after doing so, the 2nd knuckle of my support index finger rests under the left of the trigger guard (no longer at the right when just contacting the side grip panel). Though this may be another topic.

"Solving" problem 1 will just require lots of dry drawing practice - learn to get that weak hand into position as quickly as possible. And problem 2 may not be a problem, because as you said, the sights are tracking consistently.

be

Thanks Brian. At first I was thinking it was incorrect to have my support index finger's 2nd knuckle under the left of the trigger guard, as it felt ackward, like my hands were way too far back at the gun. But come to think of it, I guess what matters is the sight recovery, and these should just be more of challenges that I just need to work on to get used to.

One quick question when setting your support hand. Do you start off first by putting your finger under the trigger guard then wrapping your hand back to the backstrap, OR do you start at the backstrap and wrap your fingers over your strong hand?

Thanks again!

From memory, I'd say the back of the hand contacts the grip ever so slightly before the fingers apply the grip. But that's not something I ever thought about. My goal was just to get the proper grip as quickly as possible.

be

[austin rick]

As a shooter new to USPSA and Limited Division, I found this thread extremely helpful. Mostly that the "high" grip feels uncomfortable and unnatural at first, but is necessary to control flip. I kept trying to get it to feel comfortable while keeping my arms bent and level. I can tell you that has been nearly impossible. I was glad to read the arms are not going to be mirrors of each other, and that it will feel unnatural at first. I feel much better about my grip and that I am moving in the right direction Thank you, Austin Rick

[Flexmoney]

My 2 problems now though are how to do this fast enough (i.e. getting to set the meaty part of my palm to reach the backstrap) after the draw, even after raising my strong thumb... and after doing so, the 2nd knuckle of my support index finger rests under the left of the trigger guard (no longer at the right when just contacting the side grip panel). Though this may be another topic.

"Solving" problem 1 will just require lots of dry drawing practice - learn to get that weak hand into position as quickly as possible. And problem 2 may not be a problem, because as you said, the sights are tracking consistently.

be

Thanks Brian. At first I was thinking it was incorrect to have my support index finger's 2nd knuckle under the left of the trigger guard, as it felt ackward, like my hands were way too far back at the gun. But come to think of it, I guess what matters is the sight recovery, and these should just be more of challenges that I just need to work on to get used to.

One quick question when setting your support hand. Do you start off first by putting your finger under the trigger guard then wrapping your hand back to the backstrap, OR do you start at the backstrap and wrap your fingers over your strong hand?

Thanks again!

From memory, I'd say the back of the hand contacts the grip ever so slightly before the fingers apply the grip. But that's not something I ever thought about. My goal was just to get the proper grip as quickly as possible.

be

Burkett (on his videos) teaches a "pinch and roll". Where, basically, you index the support hand on the crease where the bottom of the trigger guard and the front strap meet...of course, your strong hand will already be occupying that space as well.

I like that for a couple of reasons. First, it gives you that positive index point...easy to find and easy to repeat. Second, if would seem to allow you to get your support hand on the gun sooner, and closer to the body.

[BillR1]

Try more cam and really pinch the crap out of your left hand.

be

A quick question for Brian or anyone...

In your (Brian's) book, you say to shoot with as little tension as possible. Pinching hard with your support hand doesn't sound like a relaxed grip, unless I'm missing something obvious.

Would you please clairify this concept?

Thanks.