I need help with my shooting grip

[Coolaidshooter]

I shoot thumbs forward. Always have. My problem is with my supporting hand.

I am a right handed shooter. My left, support hand comes loose, and messes up my hold every three to four shots,

no matter how hard I grip the gun. It's driving me nuts.

[yoshidaex]

Try some pro grip.

[Jake Di Vita]

One or more of the following:

Pro Grip

Improve grip strength

Get a more aggressive stippling where your support hand contacts the gun

I'd also like to see a picture of your grip to make sure everything is solid there.

[VegasOPM]

Two questions that very few people think to ask- do you have dry skin and how big are your hands? If you have dry hands, I would suggest Prince grip instead of Pro grip (it seems to work a little better for me). I have to use Prince grip, and an extremely agressive texturing on my grip to maintain a solid hold with my support hand. The agressive texturing helps due to my hand size (or should I say "mitts"). I can't get any purchase on the back of the grip with my support hand, so I rely on the friction of the grip against the pad of my left hand. Grip strength doesn't mean much without friction.

[Duane Thomas]

Honestly, the first thing that occurs to me is to look at your arm position. How do you hold your arms? A bit of flex there, not too much, will allow your arms to absorb a lot of the recoil, kind of like shock absorbers, so you don't get that "shock" of gun movement that can break free your support hand.

All gripping hard will do it immobilize your support hand. While that sounds theoretically desirable, if the gun moves and the support hand doesn't....guess what happens?

[Jake Di Vita]

All gripping hard will do it immobilize your support hand. While that sounds theoretically desirable, if the gun moves and the support hand doesn't....guess what happens?

Aren't there a whole lot of extremely successful shooters that grip the bejesus out of the gun?

[Coolaidshooter]

I use this exact grip. Only the heel of my support hand makes contact with the grip of the gun.

Strength is not an issue for me...it is my technique. I will try arm angle, right now I lock up my elbows.

I'll loosen up, so my arms absorb a little more recoil.

I used to put a little thumb pressure against the gun, but now I rest them only. They feel out the proper position.

I haven't heard about that grip glue stuff, I'll look into it, and I'll shoot w/ a pair of leather gloves, and see

what difference that makes.

Thanks.

[Duane Thomas]

Aren't there a whole lot of extremely successful shooters that grip the bejesus out of the gun?

Yes, but not while also locking out their arms so their hands can't move at all in recoil.

and I'll shoot w/ a pair of leather gloves, and see what difference that makes.

Wearing gloves will severely degrade your performance. I mentioned this in another thread recently, but I once did an article where I compared my performance firing a Glock 19 on the graduation exercises from the InSights Training Center Intensive Handgun Skills speed shooting course when wearing light gloves, heavy gloves, and no gloves at all. Even the light gloves, if memory serves correctly, cost me 30 percent of my performance, when you factor speed with accuracy.

Don't look for some sort of artificial, equipment oriented fix to cure what is very much a technique problem. More than just Brian's grip in that photo, look at his arm position.

How about these photos of Ben Stoeger, Phil Strader, and another view, from the front, of Brian Enos. Notice a common theme?

[DWFAN]

--snip--

Notice a common theme?

Not with my untrained eyes ?

[Jake Di Vita]

Yes, but not while also locking out their arms so their hands can't move at all in recoil.

Well that's not how you worded it in the original post - that sounds better.

Coolaid,

That's all well and good, but I'd still like to see a photo of your grip. Preferably from the left, right, back (where the hands meet), and a good overall picture of stance and arm position. You may say it's exactly like Brian's, but his hands don't come off the gun, which is pretty compelling evidence that your grip isn't exactly like his (even though it could appear to be).

Gloves really aren't a great option for many reasons; as you will soon find out when you try them.

[Duane Thomas]

Not with my untrained eyes ?

Arm bend.

[DWFAN]

Got it. I was looking at the grip specifically. Good info here, I'll be watching this one.

[Duane Thomas]

Kewl.

All part of our fast, friendly service.

[danny]

Try and get a little finger pinch between the trigger gaurd and your support index finger, also get the heel of your support hand on the back of your grips a little. You look as if you have large hands try larger grips.

[Coolaidshooter]

You wanted to see "MY" grip so here it is. My elbows are both bent, and my right arm is higher than my left.

Thanks for the gloves tip. I don't want a crutch. I want to work the problem.

Thanks for the Grip Glue tip, Can't find any. I'll have to order some, but it won't get here for a while.

Sometiomes, I see Massad, or other shooters with their arms locked stiff in rapid fire. I do this and my support hand jumps off the gun.

I feel like I want to nail my left hand into the grip.

[Jake Di Vita]

Those photos from other angles would really help in an analysis of the problem. Based off of this one I would recommend to you that you try and get the heel of your hand a little bit higher on the gun by camming your wrist forward (think trying to touch the target with your left thumb). Yes, that is nitpicking, but I've always believed in teaching people the right way from the start.

I'm also wondering if you have this problem with a full size gun?

[benos]

Coolaidshooter,

Compare your left hand's position on the grip with mine. Note how much farther counterclockwise my wrist is cam'd. With my right thumb totally relaxed, it's parallel with the slide. Whereas your thumb is pointing upwards a bit.

More cam does two thing. It gets more flesh on the grip, and provides more leverage to return the muzzle down from recoil.

Try more cam and really pinch the crap out of your left hand.

Also, as Jake suggested, pics from different angles when your in your actual shooting position would help.

be

[AWLAZS]

When I work with shooters that have the support hand coming off the gun I find its because they are trying to grip the gun with their strong hand.

When you are gripping the gun you want the thumb of you support hand to be pointing directly at the target like in the photos above. Push the gun all the way until its locked out straight in front of you. Relax and let your elbows bend try to keep them parallel to the ground. When you relax it should put the gun in correct position.

Pay attention to how the grip feels to you your support hand should be squeezing the fingers on the strong hand. You should be able to feel you strong hand fingernails in the palm of your support hand. If you are not feeling that you need to increase the grip with you support hand until you do.

[Duane Thomas]

A lot of people who use the straight thumbs grip think, not illogically, that the important thing is pointing the thumbs kinda-sorta forward. They don't understand that the heart of the technique is not pointing the thumbs, it's rolling the wrist forward to get your support hand higher up on the gun for more leverage to hold down muzzle flip, and springload your wrist into the "down" position which also does its bit to hold down muzzle flip. Thus they wind up with, in my opinion, a misapplication of the technique that has the wrist basically straight and the thumbs pointed slightly upward.

The reason a gun flips its muzzle when it fires is because the line of energy it's giving you, the bore line, the bore axis, the hole through the center of the barrel, is above your hands, thus when you fire the gun it has leverage to flip. It's well-known that a gun with a high bore axis, like for instance an XD or HK, all else being equal will flip its muzzle higher and have more perceived recoil than a gun with a low bore axis like a 1911 or Glock. If we can get our support hand higher up on the gun, we have de facto lowered the bore axis. Look at the top of the heel of your support hand in your grip photo, and how low down on the gun it is relative to the bore line. Ask yourself how much leverage that gives you to hold down muzzle flip. Not a lot, right?

Now, all that does not mean you can't have the wrist rolled forward AND the thumbs pointed upward, if that makes the gun point better for you. Here are a couple more photos. The first set of hands belongs to Brian, the second set belongs to me. I'm not necessarily recommending the grip in my photo - actually the way I grip the gun changes on a regular basis - I'm just saying to note that, even with my thumbs pointed considerably higher than yours, I still have my support hand wrist rolled forward, and I'm pretty darn high up on the gun.

Don't be afraid to play around with your grip. There's no one right answer here.There's just what works best for you. And even that will change frequently. Like a serious golfer is never through playing around with how he grips the club, serious shooters never stop experimenting with new ways of gripping the gun.

[Coolaidshooter]

When I twist/turn/torque my left supporting hand, so that my thumb points straight down the gun @ the target,

it puts my left arm higher than my right arm. Much higher. It also hurts my wrist. Though it does help out

with control issues. The muzzle comes down straighter. I might try increasing my grip size. I have the smallest on the gun now.

My thinking is more right hand grasp. Though it leaves less grip for the left hand to make contact.

When gripping with the left hand, I peel the right hand off, exposing more grip, and then tuck the left hand in. Then settle the thumb on my shooting hand on top. Is this correct?

[AWLAZS]

What do you mean peel the right hand off? Your hands should just fit together like a puzzle

[Jake Di Vita]

In general, your left arm will be straighter and higher than your right arm.

The wrist pain is fairly common. It's been my experience that it goes away with work. If it gets worse, use common sense and stop and figure out why it is getting worse.

When looking where your grip from behind the gun, you should not be able to see any space between the heel of both your hands.

[Coolaidshooter]

What I meant by moving my grip, is that with a one hand hold, it's impossible to add the supporting hand w/o

overlapping into a thumb over thumb grip.

To get a thumbs forward grip, I have to loosen the one handed grip, point my thumb up, place in my supporting hand,

then enclose it with my strong hand, resting my strong hand thumb on top of my supporting hand.

This is my new grip, w/wrist bent at target. I ordered grip glue. My hand still wants to come loose on me after 4 shots, unless I adjust quickly. I feel my grip is too far foward. Has anyone tried interlocking pinkies, like on a golf club?

Edited February 18, 2010 by Coolaidshooter

[little_kahuna]

Eliminate you're expecations of what a "correct" grip is.

For me, and many shooters (as Jake mentioned) your left arm will be straighter and consequently higher than your right arm. Also, refer to what Brian said about support-hand thumb position.

It never feels quite right at first, and it will take a lot of practice to become "natural."

[benos]

When gripping with the left hand, I peel the right hand off, exposing more grip, and then tuck the left hand in. Then settle the thumb on my shooting hand on top. Is this correct?

For me, yes.

On a 1911 style pistol, my left hand would be so high up on the grip - I couldn't flip the safety off with my left hand in position. So during the draw stroke, I'd first flip off the safety, then raise my right thumb to let my left hand get into position, then clamp down my right thumb on top of my left hand.

That was just something I noticed I did one day. And I realized it was the natural result of the desire to get my left hand as high on the grip as possible.

be