+p and +p+ loads in 9mm

[RussellJohnson]

I use power pistol and bullseye powder in 9mm. Any advice for these powders or anyother recommended loads and powder for + and +P+,is appreciated, I shoot glock 26, 17 and 34 I have shot thousands of rounds and some of those being +p and +P+ rounds, some of those rounds being law enforcement issued rounds. I would not want to shoot +p or +p+ rounds on a regular basis. Since I have retired from law enforcement I carry my pistols on the ranch where I work parttime for predator control.

Edited February 1, 2010 by RussellJohnson

[Joe4d]

Get thee to a reloading manual they will tell you which powders and recipes are best for higher velocity loads but stop and ask your self, Why do you need to reload over pressure 9mm rounds ? Burn more powder beat up your guns, increased recoil for what purpose ?

[twodownzero]

Just a suggestion...

If you're new enough to this forum to be posting in the beginning section, do yourself a favor and stop trying to hot rod your reloaded ammo. It serves no useful purpose and could cause you pretty serious injury.

Power pistol even at the book load is pretty stout for 9mm, and will give you a pretty serious fireball of unburned powder out the end of a 4" pistol.

Just load to the book specs and enjoy. 40,000 PSI that close to your fingers is pretty scary.

[Too_Slow]

I would suggest that you NEVER try shooting +P+ loads out of any of those pistols. Those loads are meant for SMG's only. They are way too over-pressure for those pistols.

Brian

[Duane Thomas]

I'm sorry but that is simply not true. I have fired hundreds of rounds of factory +P and +P+ through my Glock 17 and 34 without the slightest problem.

Would I handload to those levels in a factory gun? No, I would not. But that's a far cry from "Factory +P+ is unsafe to fire in an auto pistol." Think about it for a moment, if this was true, why would so many police departments be issuing this ammo? Why would it even be sold on the civilian market if it was unsafe?

[G-ManBart]

I'm sorry but that is simply not true. I have fired hundreds of rounds of factory +P and +P+ through my Glock 17 and 34 without the slightest problem.

Would I handload to those levels in a factory gun? No, I would not. But that's a far cry from "Factory +P+ is unsafe to fire in an auto pistol." Think about it for a moment, if this was true, why would so many police departments be issuing this ammo? Why would it even be sold on the civilian market if it was unsafe?

All true. +P+ is still short of a proof load, which is 45K PSI or a bit more...and those don't blow up Glocks. R,

[kevin c]

Another thought - +p and +p+ 9mm loads are for man sized predators. I'm hoping you aren't needing to deal with that on the ranch?

[twodownzero]

I'm sorry but that is simply not true. I have fired hundreds of rounds of factory +P and +P+ through my Glock 17 and 34 without the slightest problem.

Would I handload to those levels in a factory gun? No, I would not. But that's a far cry from "Factory +P+ is unsafe to fire in an auto pistol." Think about it for a moment, if this was true, why would so many police departments be issuing this ammo? Why would it even be sold on the civilian market if it was unsafe?

Police departments are not issuing +P+ as such a standard does not exist. +P does exist and is safe in most guns, and loads are available in some reloading manuals for such a load. +P+ should indicate to most people that the load is beyond any SAAMI max for 9mm Luger, including the typical, safe, and tested +P designation.

No gun is rated for +P+, few, if any are tested with such a load, and using them is at your own risk because they are beyond any legitimate specification for pressure.

[twodownzero]

I'm sorry but that is simply not true. I have fired hundreds of rounds of factory +P and +P+ through my Glock 17 and 34 without the slightest problem.

Would I handload to those levels in a factory gun? No, I would not. But that's a far cry from "Factory +P+ is unsafe to fire in an auto pistol." Think about it for a moment, if this was true, why would so many police departments be issuing this ammo? Why would it even be sold on the civilian market if it was unsafe?

All true. +P+ is still short of a proof load, which is 45K PSI or a bit more...and those don't blow up Glocks. R,

A proof load is merely a check for safety. Any gun fed a steady diet of proof loads would likely show wear well beyond what one would expect from a typical service life.

Stick to published, safe loads. That's my opinion anyway. If not, it's your face and hands; I hope you wear polycarbonate safety glasses.

[Duane Thomas]

Police departments are not issuing +P+ as such a standard does not exist

Yes, police departments are issuing 9mm +P+. If you want, I could do a web search and give you a list of police departments issuing 9mm +P+. Or you could do that yourself before you make a such a statement.

While it's true that +P+ standard "doesn't exist" if your definition of "doesn't exist" is that it's a not a SAAMI recognized designation. in practical terms it means the ammunition exceeds the SAAMI 38,500 psi standard for 9mm +P. If it "doesn't exist" then I must have imagined the label on the box of Winchester 127-grain SXT +P+ I loaded into my carry Glock and its two spare magazines.

Go ahead and be scared of 9mm +P+. I guess we all have to go with what makes us feel comfortable. For myself, like I said, I've fired hundreds of rounds of such ammo, I'm not basing my opinion on theory. I know it's safe because I've done it.

[John Z Sr]

If you want to push a .355 bullet that fast,,, why not go to .357 bullet, get a .357 Mag and have a ball,,, or if you insist on a Glock,,, get a .357 Sig

[Duane Thomas]

Because even when pushing a .355" bullet to low-end .357 Magnum velocities, in an auto pistol you wind up with a gun MUCH less punishing, more pleasant, and easier to shoot fast and well than a .357 Magnum revolver. In .357 SIG you're driving basically the same weight bullet around 200 fps faster than in 9mm +P+. I find 9mm +P+ actually a fairly pleasant cartridge to fire, but .357 SIG is a nasty, loud, hard kicking beast. And while I don't view the lesser magazine capacity when you go 9mm to .357 SIG as a huge negative, certainly I can't view it as a positive either. Also .357 SIG doesn't give me the option of practicing with cheap 9mm hardball, the hands-down least expensive factory centerfire cartridge you can buy today.

[DougCarden]

Powerpistol or Accurate Arms #7 will do whatever you need for predator control. The book loads will serve you well.....Just work up the loads for what you need, and use hearing protection when you cap them off. Powerpistol is LOUD stuff!

Good luck,

DougC

[G-ManBart]

I'm sorry but that is simply not true. I have fired hundreds of rounds of factory +P and +P+ through my Glock 17 and 34 without the slightest problem.

Would I handload to those levels in a factory gun? No, I would not. But that's a far cry from "Factory +P+ is unsafe to fire in an auto pistol." Think about it for a moment, if this was true, why would so many police departments be issuing this ammo? Why would it even be sold on the civilian market if it was unsafe?

Police departments are not issuing +P+ as such a standard does not exist. +P does exist and is safe in most guns, and loads are available in some reloading manuals for such a load. +P+ should indicate to most people that the load is beyond any SAAMI max for 9mm Luger, including the typical, safe, and tested +P designation.

No gun is rated for +P+, few, if any are tested with such a load, and using them is at your own risk because they are beyond any legitimate specification for pressure.

I'm not sure where you're gathering your information, but it's wrong. Without even going in to departments, Win Ranger ammo is only routinely sold to police organizations. They list at least two 9mm +P+ loads. I know of multiple agencies that have, and are, issuing +P+ with no problems.

Plenty of testing is done with ammo at that pressure level...not only by agencies, but by manufacturers.

[G-ManBart]

A proof load is merely a check for safety. Any gun fed a steady diet of proof loads would likely show wear well beyond what one would expect from a typical service life.

Stick to published, safe loads. That's my opinion anyway. If not, it's your face and hands; I hope you wear polycarbonate safety glasses.

A proof load is a simple test that says a gun won't blow up if it's subjected to ammo that is 130% of normal max pressure. In many cases, the gun/cartridge combo is capable of handling far higher pressures before anything will fail.

In fact, many .40 Major loads are the equivalent of a proof loads (think N310, Clays, N320 with a 180 or 200), most (if not all) 9 Major loads are at least at proof levels, and many .38 Super/Supercomp Major loads are at proof levels. I've only shot a couple hundred thousand of them so far...maybe my luck will run out.

I'm not saying people should ignore loading data, but the fact remains that much of what USPSA/IPSC shooters are doing involves ammo over SAAMI spec pressures. R,

[Duane Thomas]

I've only shot a couple hundred thousand of them so far...maybe my luck will run out.

LOLing until I cough.

[John Z Sr]

Because even when pushing a .355" bullet to low-end .357 Magnum velocities, in an auto pistol you wind up with a gun MUCH less punishing, more pleasant, and easier to shoot fast and well than a .357 Magnum revolver. In .357 SIG you're driving basically the same weight bullet around 200 fps faster than in 9mm +P+. I find 9mm +P+ actually a fairly pleasant cartridge to fire, but .357 SIG is a nasty, loud, hard kicking beast. And while I don't view the lesser magazine capacity when you go 9mm to .357 SIG as a huge negative, certainly I can't view it as a positive either. Also .357 SIG doesn't give me the option of practicing with cheap 9mm hardball, the hands-down least expensive factory centerfire cartridge you can buy today.

Some good points, but I've never had any problem shooting a round gun with major loads, I find it very pleasant and I shoot it fairly well and have no problems keeping up with the bottom feeders speed,,, practice, practice, practice

[Duane Thomas]

Well, that's because you're a total stud.

[twodownzero]

I don't know why we'd use the forum to encourage unsafe reloading practices. Winchester Ranger ammo was developed in a lab and tested in a pressure barrel. As I stated before, there is no SAAMI spec for that round, and Winchester is selling it at its own risk, I'm sure with its lawyers and engineers looking over the shoulders of those who are developing loads that are obviously not within the specification range for that caliber.

I think we all know that there are loads out there that can be hot rodded successfully. .45 colt and 45-70 government come to mind. Both are cartridges that were designed for firearms far less modern than the guns we're shooting today, without the benefit of the strength our modern guns have. In consequence, some loading manuals have "Ruger only" or "No trap door Springfield" loads because it's well known that going behind the original specs for a cartridge (.45 super anyone) can be done safely in some firearms.

That said, if I can't do it with Power Pistol, AA #7, Blue Dot etc., it just doesn't need to be done in 9mm. Pushing the limit a little bit is fine (I've tried Clays with heavy bullets in 9mm, I'm sure many are using it for .40 major with heavy bullets, and my Solo 1000 loads are all over any published loads I've seen), etc. But I think any reloader would be foolish not to approach this sort of loading with a grain of salt. The best performing loads in 9mm are going to be those that are compressed loads with full cases of a slower burning powder. Stuffing 20% more powder in there and compressing the load further may result in pressure that far exceeds 130% of a published load for +P.

Anyone who has reloaded for long enough knows that you can push the envelope if you really want to. I don't think it's a good reloading practice and so I condemn it. Stick to published loads or loads that you have personally worked up.

Coming on the forum asking for hot loads is a bad reloading practice. I can't imagine why or how someone on this forum would say otherwise. Gmanbart, you yourself have told people to watch their COALs on heavy bullet/Clays .40 loads before. Obviously you're a person who understands that high pressures can cause nasty consequences.

The same goes for trying to give your gun an overpressure of a slower burning powder to try to gain performance beyond what the original case's capacity will give.

A few more grains of powder might make your gun shoot like a laser, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

If the OP insists on hot rodding, I highly suggest that he do it with caution. The list of calibers that I'll venture outside the box of published loads for is very short.

[Duane Thomas]

I don't know why we'd use the forum to encourage unsafe reloading practices.

Because we're not. You assume it's unsafe. Just saying that over and over again doesn't make it a fact. You theorize it's unsafe. Around about the time the guys with the real experience show up - G-ManBart would be an example - who've actually done the things you only theorize about, it's probably time to say, "Thanks for sharing your experience," instead of falling back on the "I refuse to give your long-term, real-world experience credence because it doesn't match my theory" argument.

For myself, I'm not talking about handloading beyond book max. For the sorts of things I want to do with a handgun I don't need to. Will I fire factory 9mm +P+ in my own guns? Sure. I'm just reacting to your comment that factory +P+ is unsafe to fire period, which is blatantly untrue, and to your statement that police departments don't issue 9mm +P+ which is also flatly untrue.

I think we all know that there are loads out there that can be hot rodded successfully. .45 colt and 45-70 government come to mind. Both are cartridges that were designed for firearms far less modern than the guns we're shooting today, without the benefit of the strength our modern guns have.

And in what year do you think the 9mm Parabellum was introduced? 9mm Parabellum was originally loaded to a performance level that by our standards today would be considered +P+. Those loads weren't unsafe then, and they're not unsafe in most guns now. Really all +P+ 9mm accomplishes is to get the cartridge up off its knees into an approximation of what it was originally intended to be. Though admittedly the P.08 is a very strong design, most of the guns around the world firing European spec 9mm these days - equivalent to North American 9mm +P+ - are nothing special in the overall strength category, and you don't see people around the world crying the 9mm is an unsafe cartridge to fire.

Facts, man. Facts. No basing your position on arguments that even a bit of web research would have told you are untrue. No staring into your crystal ball and commenting on what you're "sure" is happening inside the Winchester factory. Facts.

[twodownzero]

I never said anything about factory +P+ being unsafe. The people who load such things have far better equipment for evaluating the safety of that ammunition than we ever will.

Trying to duplicate such a load without the proper equipment and experience to do so could be deadly. Going beyond book max when you don't know any better seems like really bad advice to me.

Like I said, it's your face and hands. If you want to risk it, go ahead. Work up, use good brass, and use the slowest powder possible and hope that the pressures don't go from a little high to way off the charts with just a minor change in charge weight. I can't stop you from doing it, but I will say that trying to push a cartridge beyond SAAMI specs is a fool's game unless you are very careful.

The military's ammo is pretty damn warm in 5.56 and 9mm both. I know that I have attempted to duplicate M193 and stopped because I realized just how far from book max it would have to be.

[Duane Thomas]

I'll disagree with the "fool's game" part. Actually it seems to me a game for a very experienced, highly skilled handloader as far away from a fool as humanly possible. Other than that, I'll agree with pretty much everything you just said.

[twodownzero]

I'll disagree with the "fool's game" part. Actually it seems to me a game for a very experienced, highly skilled handloader as far away from a fool as humanly possible. Other than that, I'll agree with pretty much everything you just said.

I think we know (as experienced handloaders) that it can be done, likely without incident. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to tell every newbie who comes on the forum without the experience that we have how to load something that is beyond published loads.

I'm perfectly fine with sharing my data and my loads that I have worked up safely in my guns. While my goals for pistol calibers often do not call for max performance, I have loaded some higher-performance pistol loads for certain guns and conditions, and I'd be happy to share those loads. They're not beyond book max in anything I've shot in 9mm or .45 ACP, though.

I will also add that .45 Colt and 45-70 are from the days before smokeless powder even existed. I'm not sure how old 9mm Luger is, probably about 1930 or so, but I do know that it's way newer than those other two.

Edited February 4, 2010 by twodownzero

[John Z Sr]

Lots of good things said here,,,, I've been reloading for over 20 years and was doing it commercially for awhile,,,, bottom line for some of the newer people to reloading,,,, start slow and work up,,, 40 FPS faster than the other guys load might not be worth it,,, but we are (hopefully) all grown ups here so have fun

[G-ManBart]

I will also add that .45 Colt and 45-70 are from the days before smokeless powder even existed. I'm not sure how old 9mm Luger is, probably about 1930 or so, but I do know that it's way newer than those other two.

In an effort to keep this on the topic at hand I'd suggest forgetting about analogies to .45 Colt and .45 Government. They simply don't compare (not even remotely) for a number of reasons. They're black powder cartridges, and the dimensions and construction of modern brass is far different from what it was in the 1870s. 9mm Parabellum brass is essentially the same, it was designed for smokeless powder and, unless I've missed something, nobody is chambering the equivalent of a S&W Model 3 for it...which is what you'd need for the analogy to be closer.

Depending on whether you use C.I.P. or SAAMI specs, a proof load is 44-45K PSI. A +P+ load is around 40K. So, +P+ is still 10% below the level that guns are tested to be, for lack of a better term, guaranteed to withstand safely. They may, in fact, be able to take much more. In reality, pretty much everybody shooting 9mm Major is well into the +P+ range or more.

How do we know this? Well, let's take your example of Power Pistol for a powder. Combine it with a typical 125gr FMJ and Alliant shows a max load of 6.6gr, generating 1235fps. That works out to 154PF. The pressure listed is 34,000 (1K shy of the SAAMI max of 35,000). The typical 9 Major load is at the very least around 170PF and often a bit higher, or 1365fps to 1400fps. If we need an additional 130-165fps, we'll be cranking the pressure WAY over 34,000 and almost surely to 40K or so. I don't recall the last time I saw or heard about a Major 9 gun blowing up. Oh, and for a while, people were pushing it to 180PF back before they changed the rules to prevent 9x19 Major under the old power factor. They weren't blowing up guns then, and they were probably running right around proof loads every single shot (and lasting). R,