00bullitt

Big Huge CONGRATS to my team mate Rob Romero for the outstanding win in the 3 Gun Nation shootoff and for a strong second place overall finish. Awesome job buddy. You did the team proud.

Bobby....true or not. My perception and what I feel are an increased recoil impulse. You can argue semantics all you want. The recoil impulse is increased and felt differently to myself....the shooter.

Hope to see you boyz from Joysey get down here. Long time no see. We are in.

I guess I still do not understand why it is not understood. Please try one more time to describe what you are asking.

Mr. Bond, you realize Tod is saying that a suppressor increases the recoil of a rifle, while you said it was the best recoil reducer right? What am I misreading here? How can you not be in disagreement when both of your opinions contradict? Dude....REALLY?

I'm quite aware I said "doubled recoil". Although not the correct choice in words as I stated I guess you'll still exploit it. The thread is to the effectiveness of a suppressor versus a compensator. That was the point of posting what my "new friend" and I discussed. But it was also only a small tidbit of what we discussed. Much of what I already posted was confirmed in our discussion.

Todd, Discussing this stuff with Barry is incredible, but don't go bringing logic, measureable data, and actual real world engineering and design experience into the discussion, that would be crazy talk Yeah I hear ya. I only posted a small portion of the discussion as I knew how it would drive the discussion. There is alot to what we discussed. And as I suspected....Barry really doesn't know what he is talking about. I pretty much realize that Barry is lucky to have the job he has seeing as how there is so much greater design and engineering knowledge out there.

This past weekend at the LaRue Tactical 3 Gun Match I was squadded with Barry Dueck. Director of the Surefire suppressor division. We had the conversation about effectiveness of a Surefire suppressor versus their compensator. Barry had said that in a recoil testing fixture that the suppressor was only 40% effective in reducing recoil to where the compensator was 56% effective. The compensator also gives you the ability to steer the gun. The suppressor does not.

I have shot both. This thread was about compensators on semi automatic gas operated rifles. I'm not speaking of bolt guns which I know you have tremendous experience with. My experience lies mostly with gas guns. When comparing apples to apples. For example....when I shoot my carbine with Federal XM193 or any ammo for that matter without a can it has one recoil impulse. As soon as I add my suppressor, that recoil impulse increases and the rifle reacts totally different. I completely feel the difference. The suppressor does not decrease recoil enough. The gas pressure is increased by 40-60% and causes the gun to run harder than the suppressor can compensate for the recoil. I arrive at that percentage because I can cut 50% of gas flow and the gun still operates. It takes cutting the gas 50% to get the recoil of the gun to feel close to the same as it did prior to adding the suppressor. That is how I quantify my impression of adding a suppressor. It is my perception. I can feel the difference. I notice the slightest difference in change when I shoot my guns as I'm sure you can. The style of shooting we both do are like comparing apples and kiwis. I know what you speak of in the bolt gun world is not the same as it is with gas guns. The addition of gas and reciprocating actions changes the dynamics of operation. I shoot gas guns in 223,308,260,6.5 Grendel and even a few other wildcat calibers. I have shot them all suppressed and unsuppressed. The results I get when adding a suppressor have all been pretty much the same. I feel increased recoil until gas pressure is decreased to a point that keeps the speed of the reciprocating assembly close to the same prior to the addition of the suppressor. And in my opinion its still a different feel and I see a different sight track in my scope. I equate some of the feel to adding 16 ounces and 6" to the end of my gun. And even then....I still have not seen the performance that I get from the SJC Titan comp that I run for competition. So....thats pretty much how I arrive at my impression of a suppressor not being the best compensator. If you have more quantifiable data that proves what I perceive to be otherwise....I am open to seeing it.

I don't even know what to say about that comment. Double the recoil? No way, not even close, and as someone that's owned a suppressor I don't know how you can say your gun kicked twice as hard. That is what double recoil means right? Doubled was poor wording. It should have just said increased. But I guess different strokes for different folks. I definitely do not believe a suppressor to be more effective than a good compensator. This comes from many thousand rounds down range of just pure feel and watching my sights. I think alot of folks lose sight of the feel of their rifle when the loud sound of an explosion is muffled. The SJC Titan weighs 5oz.

I tend to disagree greatly. The suppressor traps gas and muffles its flow. A compensator takes advantage of gas flow and vents it in a direction advantageous to balance the recoil and muzzle rise of the gun. The suppressor builds back pressure to a degree that recoil is doubled...not decreased. A compensator and suppressor are not even apples to apples in comparison. The extra added weight of the suppressor helps counter balance recoil just from an added weight standpoint but it also makes the rifle more cumbersome. But hey....I hope more of my competitors use cans.

I don't have any experience with the Spikes blocks. I have a hahn and replaced it with a Hahn. They have been flawless. My RRA block was hit or miss. My 9mm is SBR'ed with an AAC suppressor. I used a Colt DOE barrel and put it into an RRA receiver. Used a VTAC/Troy 9" Battlerail. Bolt is a Colt. A small Aimpoint T1 tops it off for optics. It shoots great and is 100% reliable in semi and full auto. If you want an assembled upper. Look at the Spikes. His stuff is well thought out and well made. I run CProducts mags and have no problems. The areas that need to be tunes are the feed ramps on the mag block and the ejector if you get one that won't run. Also check the feed lip dimensions on the mags. I prefer to run a Wolf XP buffer spring and the Spikes dedicated heavy 9mm buffer.

I myself believe heavily in JP products and spend alot of money with his company. But it does not change the fact that I will continue to test and evaluate new and different products against what I currently believe in and use.

Hey Craig....I'll be honest here. Giesselle sent us the SSA triggers first. We weren't too crazy about them and told him what we were looking for and he sent the DMR Match triggers that are fully adjustable and explained some of the adjustment parameters. We got the DMR's and installed them. I adjusted them multiple different ways to find what I liked best. Reset is not JP short but it is Glock positive. I am a Glock shooter and really like the feedback from the Glock trigger. I did not think I would like a 2 stage and was not sure I wanted to run the Giesselle trigger. After having it in my gun and putting a few thousand dry fire evolutions on it....I have a different opinion of it. I shot a match with it and felt every shot and had great feedback from it. Best feedback I have ever gotten from a rifle trigger. My splits maybe slowed down a hundredth. I pull some fast .13 splits with ease. My splits were never slower than .15 and my hits were phenomenal. I really dig the DMR. I will say it was a huge paradigm shift for me. When sponsors give me product....I won't use it unless I am pleased with it. If I am pleased with it....I will endorse it completely and I will be honest about my perception of performance. I liked the AR Gold. It was a great trigger but like you experienced....you can easily lose feedback when shooting fast. Sometimes leading to slapping and opening up your shot group. JP has a bit more feedback than the AR Gold but I still experienced the same thing as with the AR Gold on occasion. Not a big problem, but it did occasionally affect hits. Last match I shot with the Giesselle....I felt every shot and called every shot perfectly. I was extremely impressed. And I did sell my AR Gold trigger.

What matches will you be attending this year?

"Best" is a very subjective term when speaking compensators but I tend to like the SJC Titan comp the best. The Search feature is your friend. This topic has been covered many of times.

I've recently acquired a couple DMR triggers from Geissele. I've never been a fan of a 2 stage trigger. I've always preferred JP's and ARGold's in my rifles. Well,upon receipt of the new triggers-First thing I noticed was the awesome quality and attention to detail. Next was the awesome set of instructions that came with the triggers for installation along with installation tools. I installed mine and adjusted them to my liking per the excellent instructions. I have mine set so that after the first stage is taken up that I hit an ever so slight wall in order to be able to feel the trigger just before the break. Total of the first and second stage breaks at just under 3 pounds. I shot my first match with the new triggers 2 weeks ago and I must say....I was thoroughly impressed with what I felt. I was in touch with the trigger for every shot. Feedback was excellent. I'm a long time Glock shooter and shoot the reset on every gun I press the trigger on. This trigger gave me excellent feedback and my points on paper showed it and my times did not drop from what I normally run. I must say that I am very impressed with the DMR GA trigger. If it does not feel good to you. Take a few minutes and read the instructions in their entirety and adjust it to your liking. I think you will be thoroughly impressed. I know I am. I'll admit....i never thought i would like a 2 stage trigger in a run-n-gun match rifle. I believe they call this a paradigm shift.

Here is something I have recently discovered but have not yet verified. I have an SX3 that has run flawlessly since I bought it and have about 2500 rounds through it. I shot a shotgun match about 2 months ago with it and it ran fine. At the end of the match....I noticed my stock was loose. So when I got home and cleaned my guns and put them up...I took the recoil pad off and tightened the crap out of the nut that holds the stock on and put it up until this past weekend. The gun choked at least twice on every stage. Much like it was short stroking but the gas system and piston were in fine order. I got home and once again removed the recoil pad and removed the nut. It was VERY tight. I applied red loctite and tightened til resistance and added about a half turn instead of 3 like prior. I plan to test fire it this week and see if anything changes. My guess is that the recoil buffer was binding in the recoil tube assembly in the stock slowing the cycle down to much.

I just want to clarify my position on the use of a forward assist. I absolutely do not believe in nor promote its use under any conditions. If the round won't go in the chamber it needs to come out.....not jammed deeper in. I just wanted to answer the question of the OP about building the closest thing to a Tacticool competition rifle. As for weights of springs and buffers. Typically when you run a lighter carrier,you can run a lighter spring and buffer. Its personal preference and it does change the reciprocating weight substantially. By decreasing that weight.....feeding reliability can become an issue. I want to keep my rifle as reliable as possible. The Young lightened NM carrier is 2 ounces heavier than the JP lightened stainless at about 9 ounces. A stock semi auto carrier is about 11 ounces. Young does not lighten their carrier as much as JP. But young may have a new ultra light carrier out soon.

JP no longer makes their aluminum ultra low mass carrier. Only their SS low mass version but it is void of the teeth for ther forward assist pawl to engage. The option and the one I prefer is the Young lightened National Match carrier. It is hard chromed steel and has the teeth needed for the FA to be functional. As for my system....thats all i run. a standard rifle buffer and a Tubbs flat wire spring. I have an adjustable gas block but it remains in the open position. The Young lightened NM carrier and an SJC Titan comp on the end of a 17" Noveske barrel with rifle length gas system are the heart of my rifle. I prefer reliability over the ultra light high performance operating system. My rifle shoots flatter than any JP rifle I have ever shot. Thats not meant to be a knock on JP because he makes fine rifles that shoot great....I basically just much prefer mine over his.

Had to do a lot of that in your lifetime? And on another note -- so you'd pass by a perfectly good long-range handgun to get to something with a buttstock? Must mean the Indian's only capable with some arrows.... I train, or did you miss that in my previous post. It's the reason I shoot USPSA, training. And so you know Nik, I have done some contract work, and have been asked to do more. Start shooting a Hipoint 9mm in competition and come back and tell me what you think Mr Indian. You guys have fun with it, I'm out. USPSA is training? Or is it practice? And no.....they are not the same. And what kind of contracting are you sought to do?

My only issue with that is the 5/8moa increment adjustments... I know it's intended to align with mill adjustments, but I just think MOA is so much more intuitive. I don't think it's a deal breaker, but I really wish they'd offer this scope with 1/4moa increment adjustments. (Or even 1/8moa if they want to maintain the mill alignment.) In all reality though...for our purposes....does it matter about the 5/8moa. We are dialing to a known position on the turret for a known range. We are not communicating with a spotter and trying to walk a round in to a target. I agree that 1/2 would be more ideal all around hands down, but why would 5/8 not work for our game? You get zeroed and zero the knobs out. Then you have a dope card that says dial 10 clicks up for a 400 yard target. Does 5/8moa really matter? To me....repeatable adjustment is more important.

The footnote says "C" models are allowed so long as the ported barrel is replaced with a non ported barrel.

I've shot this scope several times on Erik's rifle. I like it alot. Great optic. Erik and I actually bought our scopes at the same time. Thats when he said....this reticle just ain't gonna cut it. I'm gonna do what I have to to get my design in here. And now it looks like that time has come. FYI....my 69gr load runs 2875 out of my 18" barrel and 2820 out of my 17". My load is 24.5grains of Hodgden Benchmark under a Sierra MatchKing loaded to 2.240". It works out perfectly with this reticle as does my 55 grain Hornady FMJ loaded with 25.6 grains of Benchmark for 3050fps. It is pretty dead nutz on. The new reticle has the 50 yard delineations which should help alot as well. They were not on the last scope I tried. It was the prototype that Erik has. this new reticle should be much better than the prototype....especially with the smaller 2moa dot. I thought at one time that USO had a doubler that would screw onto the eyepiece and double the power? I wonder if they still have it? that would work well for something like Ironman.

In terms of coil type springs....there are two lengths of recoil spring to fit the buffer tube. Of course the carbine buffer tube and buffer are shorter than rifle length so the spring is shorter and vice versa. Flat wire springs are the same length as they stack differently in the tube and different length springs are not necessary. And yes.....reliability can be degraded when the operating system is lightened.