the gman 763

I have the Extrema 1, highly modified by a member here whose name escapes me right now. I love it to death. I finally got round to cleaning it the Sunday before Ironman as I thought that 3 years of 3 gun was long enough between cleanings........! Flakes & I mean BIG flakes of carbon came off of the gas piston & it was truly filthy but still ran like a champ. 30 mins with a wire brush, brake cleaner & a scraper got it clean. They run like champions & unlike the Benelli, I can get lots of shells on carriers on the gun for stuff like Ironman. Recoil is very soft & all in all, it has been a wonderful shotgun. I'll be a little sad when she is replaced by the Saiga but she'll still get used for coyotes & waterfowl. You just need to know that it will need some work to make it run in 3 gun; barrel shortened, ports tuned, bigger cocking handle, (Nordic NOT Arredondo AMHIK!) extended mag tube & bigger bolt release. Never seen another in 3 gun but seen plenty of Remingtons, SX 2/3 & SLP's go down over the years. Not once have I have had more than a failure to extract or feed & that was a result of feeding it the cheapest, nastiest ammo I can find. Only real issue is that if you fail to stuff the shell all the way into the tube so it catches, the floorplate will pop over & the shell will sit on the plate & the only real way to get that shell out is to feed it into the chamber. Can be annoying when you are 2 shells into a reload.......! That's more of a training issue though, as in I need to do more of it....! Other than that, did I mention I love mine??

Anyone who wants to shoot a Saiga (& I will shortly be one of them) should be shooting in Open. If you want to do it on a budget, you can. No-one is saying that you have to go out & blow $3 to 5K on an Open pistol, there are options well below that. Similarly with your rifle, you don't need a JP to be competitive at any level of the sport. I just got back from the MGM Ironman & was shooting on the same squad as Matt Burkett (the winner, again.... ) & there were 3 others in that squad shooting Saigas. Robert Johnson was shooting a nice R&R Racing prepped Saiga as was Dustin Lohof. Despite both Dustin & RJ being very experienced Open shooters, Matt, shooting his trusty Benelli & using sticks, won the day. Skill, not equipment is paramount in 3 gun. Having a good plan, shooting that plan & being on top of your game is what counts. I think we will see new shooters rising to the top in Open & the Saiga will help for sure. I shot Open & hand stuffed my reliable as hell Beretta Extrema because I just didn't want to invest in all the crap that goes along with sticks but I do love shooting my Open pistol. My rifle this year was my coyote gun with a Leupold VX-III 3.5 -10 on it. I just can't miss with this thing but it also isn't a usual Open rifle. My point is that you don't necessarily have to copy the top open guys with equipment to win or place highly. Spending more time on the range will raise your game more than anything else, whether you shoot a Saiga or anything else. Get out & shoot!!!

Stephanie & I (GS Arms LLC) will be helping to sponsor the match again this year & with luck, I might get some practice myself so I can shoot a little better than last year.......... Merry Christmas to all in the Gibson & Chidester households!!!

I also spoke with several of the Trijicon folks at SHOT, one of whom was the engineer in charge of the Accupoint reticle changes. He is also a 3 gun guy & was very, very receptive to the idea of an ACOG style or some form of BDC reticle for the 1.25x4 scope. In his words "I want one & so do a few other guys at the plant who also shoot 3 gun, I'm just having a hard time selling it to the powers that be." These guys are busy & as I also work in the gun industry, I know what it is like. You have a bunch of very vocal, very passionate guys screaming for what seems to make perfect sense to them about what you should do with your product line but then that idea has to be sold to the folks in the food chain higher up on a dollar & cents basis. He is hopeful that the changes can be made but it ain't like Tijicon is lacking any form of demand for current product offering. I know that ACOG's have a 16 week lead time right now & they are running their butts off to keep up with demand on that line alone. I use the 1.25 x 4 Accupoint & love it to bits. A BDC ret would make it perfect & as I said, the Trijicon guys know it. We can only hope that we see it from the company in due course.

I wear a SERPA rig all day at work & use same for 3 gun when I know I'll be shooting more than one gun on a stage with transitions. I have two of them & love them. I especially like the 2 suspension straps rather than a single a la the Safariland. I also like the push button release & retention system which allows me to almost 'drop' the pistol into the holster without any further latches or covers or straps. As long as I hear the 'click' when the pistol hits home, I know I'm good. Safariland is a great holster, I just prefer the SERPA. YMMV.

There is a gun store in Ontario OR but ammo supply was limited or at least was last year when I called in. It was also expensive but hey, it's a small town! Round counts are out, if you are going, you should have received an email from Tennile reference that. I had to ship my ammo to one of our vendors in ID cuz ain't no way the Wally World or the gun shop is gonna carry .38 Super Comp or 6.8 SPC.... Slug round count seems to be down this year compared to last year but last year was my first Ironman & first Trooper too. Shooting Trooper again this year unless my ammo doesn't make it until the second day in which case I guess I'll be shooting Open. Good luck all & see you at the match.

Ok so I know this topic was recently covered ( I used the search function first ) but I didn't see anything about the Safariland 012 or at least, I didn't think I did.... So, would a Safariland 012 be a good choice for this gun or not? Newbie to open & don't want to spend more cash than I need to for a learning holster. I can get a great deal thru a friend on any Safariland kit so that's one of the reasons for asking. Thanks in advance for any help & be gentle with me, I started shooting IPSC with UKPSA back in the early '80's with a Beretta 92SB & an IWB rig.....!! Now in the land of the free, I'm dipping my toe in open for 3 gun matches.

Big plus one on that. For the money, it is simple, it's easy to use & I can use the extra cash I saved to buy more reloading stuff like a 1050.....

Some of you folks don't seem to be reading the poster's initial question which was "what is the surplus RG ammo that Midway is selling like?" (to paraphrase) Radway Green ammo is of excellent quality, it is the standard issue SS 109 spec ammo issued to the British Armed forces. I have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds of this ammo in military competitions, in training & some in combat. It DOES contain the tungsten penetrator in the tip but it is NOT AP ammo per se. The penetrator tip aids in piercing helmets & body armour, but it WILL swiss cheese steel targets. Ergo, as correctly stated, most comps (unless all paper) will not allow it's use. It's great for practice on paper tho'. I used to be a member of the British Army Combat Shooting Team & in 1995, the rifle team used US issue M855 in our SA 80 rifles in the AFSAAM comp in Little Rock AR. The boys did not shoot up to their usually high standards & were disappointed with the ammo quality. In 1997 at the next match, we brought our own standard issue RG & whupped all comers, the best of the US Army, Reserves, NG, USMC & the rest of the world went home empty handed, with the rifle team winning almost every stage. It's good ammo.... All it is, is surplus to requirements for the Brits. What happens is that the ammo in stock has a 'shelf life' that the military has pre-determined that it will 100% perform to original specs & after that point, is no longer allowed to be issued for operational (or combat if you prefer) use. At that point, most of the ammo is classed as 'training use' only & the remainder is sold as 'surplus' on the commercial market. This is where the ammo on the market has come from right now. It is still in perfect shape & will shoot excellent groups with the right twist, as it was intended for a 1 in 7". 1 in 9" will stabilise it but I don't think you'll have much luck with a 1 in 12". This ammo was issued on stripper clips with 2 tracer rounds to 8 ball. Import regs don't allow tracer ammo to be imported for sale to civilians so the tracers are stripped off the clips & the boxes are re-packed. The ammo was packed into 900 rnd boxes so most importers simply remove the 180 tracers, re-pack the boxes & sell them as 720 rnd lots, complete with the clips & bandoliers that the clips came in. Midway shows that ammo as out of stock & at least in my opinion, was over priced as they simply re-packed the ammo into cardboard boxes & you didn't get the stripper clips, the bandoliers or the nice metal ammo case. (but they would sell you that lot seperately..... ) AIM surplus, www.aimsurplus.com will sell you 720rnds with the box et al, for the reasonable figure of $140 + shipping are really nice people to do business with too. On a side note, true AP ammo is usually issued for MG's & therefore doesn't need to be as accurate but some can be. Sweeping statements such as those above often confuse & become internet legends to be bandied about for years as fact. I personally have shot plenty of true AP ammo in military weapons but would not do so in my own guns on anything but an emergency situation as some (but not all) true AP has a hardened jacket as well as a hardened core, hence that can damage the rifling. Hope this helped correct some mis-conceptions & inaccurate info.

Sadly, I have to be in DC next week for the TREXPO show, work is a bitch! SO, I have had to withdraw from the match, anyone hoping to enter better email Steve & ask for my place. At least in my sorrow there is joy for some lucky soul.....

Mario, I'm an ex-pat Englishman & you have no legal issues on you buying any ammo whatsoever, guns are a different kettle of fish, 'natch. As for the swingers, I have no idea what they are but I spoke with Tennille at MGM last week after reading Matt Burkett's comments on his site about not moving them with a minor gun. She tells me that this for year, if you hit the swinger it counts & if it swings, that's a bonus. I guess I'll find out what a swinging target looks like when I get there.......

Well, I dunno about not using it at Ironman, here's my tale of woe: Just got my shotgun back from fitting a ghost ring & have to sight it in; haven't yet received my 3 gun gear shell or rifle mag carriers; STILL loading rifle ammo; spare pistol is on 'delay' at the gunshop, my AR upper is being overnighted to me & I have to collect my AR lower from another FFL today. I leave tomorrow. Ya think you got questions in yer mind about equipment????? And I have to add; this is my first major 3 gun match & I'm shooting trooper.......as long as I finish, I don't care. Good luck, I intend to have fun no matter what, as long I don't embarrass myself & I'm seen to be a safe shot, that's all that really counts.

The requirement to be a USPSA member and have at least 1 classifier on record is to help ensure that applicants have shot an approved or sanctioned match (which follow USPSA and IPSC rules) prior to entering this 'championship' match. A 3 gun match is definately NOT the place for a new shooter to cut their teeth on IPSC with 3 rule books (4 if you count the Tournament rules) and 3 different trigger pulls and gun configurations/safeties/sights, etc. A 'championship' 3 gun with serious competition and prizes on the line - doubly so. But, as they say, there are no absolutes and exceptions are possible. If there are foreign shooters with obvious IPSC experience, we will be looking at their application on an individual basis even though they may not be USPSA members or have a classifier on file. After our safety and experience concerns are satisfied, the only other thing we really want is to accomodate as many shooters as possible. I hope this clears up any misconceptions or concerns. (edited for typos) Thanks for clearing that up for me & hopefully by now you should have received the email from the NROI officer from my club? I completely understand the reasoning & I'd like to publicly apologise if I came off like a pr*#k. Being in the US now & getting to shoot all these matches is like a breath of fresh air after the nightmare of the UK.... Quick question on the round count as I'll need to send my ammo up to the head office in VA; does the total include all rounds required for minimum hits or is it per MGM where it reflects 1 x 'A' hit per target? Thanks again for your polite & informative emails, I sincerely appreciate it.

As a newbie, (maybe also the token Englishman from NM) I shall be attending & I too am still loading ammo & waiting for my new rifle to arrive.... Talk about cutting things fine!!! My ammo load is virtually the same as Sinstral's. Watch & take pity on the poor Trooper class folks, we'll be struggling along behind yer 4 wheelers & the like....

What's with the "NO NEW SHOOTERS" rule??? I have been shooting IPSC on & off since 1984 yet due to my move here to the USA, I am unclassified. I'm shooting the MGM Iron man in 2 weeks time, the Rocky Mountain 3 gun & hopefully the Cav Arms match in Waco & had planned a biz trip to VA to coincide with this comp but now I can't shoot it?? Is there some way round this for experienced yet unclassified shots? I'd happily fax or email my qualifications & previous match records to anyone for approval. I can understand the desire to keep the match running smoothly without new folks either slowing things down or causing safety/DQ problems but you aren't helping the sport IMHO by limiting entries. Tell me this isn't a USPSA rule? I joined USPSA as a life member simply because my schedule allows me to shoot more often than in the last 10 years & I was really looking forward to shooting this match.

Aww, shoot, I KNEW it was a bad idea to change to Trooper class.......

You'll very probably need a stock extenstion BD. A stock that is a little too short isn't as big a hinderance as one that is overly long. I would suggest you do the 'rough' length of pull test as described above. See where your trigger finger arrives at. In your case, I would suspect that your palm would be about where the trigger guard is. Here's a very shakey pic to illustrate what I mean, (it's shakey cuz holding the gun with one hand & the camera with the other is a tad difficult!!) If you feel like you are 'crawling' up the stock of a long gun at any time, the stock is probably a touch long for you. A slightly shorter than usual stock is no real handicap & I know Matt Burkett & others prefer a slightly shorter than normal stock for 3 gun because of the more square stance they advocate. Most stocks are set up with the idea of you adopting the traditional 'weak foot forward, strong foot back' shooting stance. This works very well indeed in the clay or wingshooting world but for comp shooting, we need more stability. Ergo the squared off stance & hence, a slightly shorter stock length. You could always buy one of the slip on recoil pads available & see how that 'feels'. Gun fit is an instinctive thing, it will either feel right or not. It's easy for me to say that as I've been shooting shotguns for a very long time & had the benefit of coaching & a professional 'gunfitter' with a laser fitting system. I just know as soon as I pick a shotgun up if it 'fits' me or not. Whether I can maximise it's potential is an entirely different thing.....

What gun are you shooting? If it's a common one like an 1100, you should be able to find a replacement very easily. As to stock length? Well, an old rule of thumb is to take your shotgun in your gun arm & bend your arm at a 90 degree angle & have the butt pad nestled at your elbow so the stock runs straight along the inside of your arm with you grasping the pistol grip. Now see where your trigger finger naturally rests. If you are reaching to contact the trigger, your stock probably is too long. I just got my Beretta Extrema back from the 'smith & it was too long before it went away, stuck a youth stock on it & it feels like a little short but I can add spacers to compensate for that. An overly long stock will hamper you in a way you won't believe until you have it shortened. I grew up in the UK shooting shotguns & 'gunfit' is an art form over there. I can't think of a single routinely successful clay or wing shooter who hasn't had their gun fitted to them. Now if you shoot an odd ball gun, you can always slice a small amount off the stock, get some Brownells Accraglas & fill in the void left behind by the slice & after it has cured, simply pilot drill it for the butt pad screws. Voila! If you have to fill the stock, coat a small piece of steel tube big enough to access the stock bolt with release agent & insert it into the stock so you can screw the stock back on or you may have problems....... Equally as important as length of pull is drop & cast. Drop is how much the stock drops away to the butt pad in relation to the rib height. That's a simplified description as drop is also measured at the wrist (just behind where you hold the PG) & at the heel (buttpad). If the drop is too much, you end up lifting your head off the stock to see down the rib & if it's too high, you'll be getting slapped by the comb as well as probably shooting over the targets. Neither situation is ideal obviously. Most trap shooters & more than a few sporting clay shooters have the comb a little high so the gun patterns a bit high. I have my SC guns set up so I shoot 2/3 over the clay & 1/3 under; this way I can always keep the clay in view. (i.e. it appears to be balanced on the rib) Cast is how much the stock is 'bent' off to one side or the other. Cast 'on' means the stock is bent twards the shooter's cheek, cast 'off' is the opposite way. This also affects how you mount the gun as if you have too much cast 'on'or 'off', instead of looking straight down the rib, you're looking off to one side or the other. Bearing in mind that with a shotgun, your master eye is the rear sight, that's not a good thing! I know that 'Practical' shotguns mostly have 'ghost ring' sights but I respectfully submit that if you are searching for the sights to align them BEFORE you shoot, you are wasting time. Good gunfit is important & a good coach will know how to fit your gun to you. Hope this helped you out a little. For more info on cast you can read this article:cast on or off

Lemme fess up right away & say I'm a Brit Army trained FAL weapons tech & a FAL addict (I guess that's what you call it when ya have 60 of 'em right??? ) so I may be a little biased... Nonetheless, I can only echo what has been said thus far, the .308 isn't competitive side by side with the .223. However, in He man class, it's the best bang for your buck bar none. Parts are readily available, it can be built to pretty much any configuration you want & you can get into one a darn sight cheaper than any other semi .308. Having worked on literally thousands of L1A1's (inch gun) & used one in combat, I would & have bet my life on a FAL type rifle. Just as with any other rifle, there are certain tricks to getting the rifle to run just right, none of 'em are rocket science tho'. I know you say you want to get it modified to take inch mags for the 30 rnd mags but many He man comps restrict you to 20 rnd mags anyway. The inch 30 rnd mags can be readily adapted to metric configuration with a dremel & the 20 rnd metric mags are a darn sight cheaper & more readily available than the 30 rnd mags. In addition, the 30 rnd inch mags *may* suffer from feed problems due to the construction of the spring. I don't know if you are aware of the Fal Files Forum or not but pretty much anything you want to know about the FAL as well as some very good deals are there. Find it right here: http://www.falfiles.com/forums/index.php?s= Last word: be careful of the kits currently on the market, they are the last & not the best of the FAL kits that have been released. The R1 rifles were rode hard & put up wet, bore condition is a crap shoot & the furniture can also be in poor shape. DSA has some Stg 58 kits in a LOT better condition for not a lot more money, they might be a better buy. Any other questions, help, advice or build problems just shoot me a PM or email. Good luck & welcome to the FAL addiction.......

Hey James, thanks for taking my comments in the spirit I intended them; i.e. slightly tongue in cheek. I completely agree with you as regards the practical difference between the camo clad guy & khakis. It's a matter of perception & to a certain extent, being able to defend ourselves against critics. We all know there are those folks out there at the likes of HCI who hate us no matter what we wear or what we shoot, they are opposed to the whole idea of private gun ownership. We will NEVER win their hearts & minds no matter what. Fortunately, they are a very tiny, albeit vocal minority of the great American public. What we are trying to avoid is the majority of ordinary non-shooting folks (& sad to say, some who shoot as well) looking at us in the action shotting sports as a bunch of camo clad Walter Mitty type characters who are one step away from living in their own compound & shooting down black helo's.... All the non shooters I have introduced to the sport in the past, either as participants or as spectators, realised that we are just ordinary folks just like them. That we happen to shoot guns really quickly whilst running around is quite interesting to them. Now if some of our fellow competitors were wearing camo, they might think a little differently about what it is we do. Heck, if you have one witness who walks into court dressed in a nice suit, clean shaven & looking respectable & another who comes in with 2 days worth of beard, unwashed & dressed in camo pants & a grubby T-shirt, who is the jury more likely to have faith in based PURELY on looks? The guy in the suit might be a complete liar & the rumpled guy might be telling the God's honest truth but the latter guy starts off at a disadvantage before he even opens his mouth. It happens every single day in our interaction with others: we make judgments based on our perception of the other person's appearance. If I see what looks to me to be an unsavoury character, I use my elbow to reassure myself that my 10mm DE is right there on my hip but I don't do that with girls or average people. Sometimes we are using mil-spec stuff but as a vet of 12 years in the Brit Army, it really isn't "full on" 'cos I don't think anyone ever won a national match by calling in an air strike....... I'm a natural joker, it's not aimed at you James, just trying to lighten the mood. Glad to have had this discussion with you & even more glad to have found this site, goodwill to all here.

How come this shoot has a maximum barrel length of 22 inches in tactical class? No other 3 gun shoots I can find do so. I only ask because I shoot a Beretta Xtrema 2 with a 26" barrel & a 22" barrel simply isn't available. The shortest is a 24" & that at the hefty price of $495!! I know I could shoot open class but then I'd have to have a comp on my handgun & a speedloader for the shotgun & all that jazz. I'm new to 3 gun & I use the Xtrema for hunting & with the mag tube extension for 3 gun. Maybe you guys could give some thought to this as surely it's the mag capacity that's key to the class rather than the length of the barrel? After all, you want to see the sport grow right? I guess I'll enter first & see what happens, might have to rework an old Remington 1100 I have in the safe.....

I understand where you're coming from with the camo pants thing but this isn't a new ruling for the touchy feely 21st century. When I was shooting IPSC in the UK in the mid to late '80s, it was the same rule then. You're an attorney so you should understand that oftentimes, perception is reality for the uninformed. Put a buncha guys in some kind of camo, running around with guns, shooting fast & reloading real quick & shock horror, actually shooting at humanoid targets & you have the basis for a 60 minutes expose into the "horrific world of combat shooting".... I've been out of the gun games for a number of years (living in a gun owner's nightmare land like the UK will do that to ya) & now I live in NM, I'm getting back into it. I was brought into the sport before open guns, comps, red dots et al & part of me kinda misses those days. BUT, that was then, this is now, these comps I want to enter & do well at require ME to change my mindset. It's their ball game & I can either sit on the outside & piss & moan about how stuff is stupid or change ME. No-one is gonna change IPSC/IDPA rules just because I don't agree with 'em. If I wanna play, I have to do the changing. It's hard, I have to practise daily to break myself of the habit of dropping into a modified Weaver 'cos that stance ain't winning matches. Sure it's worked for me for years but it ain't the way forward. I too wear camo BDU's (well the Brit DPM pattern actually but you get what I mean) for hunting but IPSC ain't hunting. When I shoot comps, I don't want a bunch of stuff flapping around my legs in cargo pockets or elsewhere, hell I leave my wallet, keys, loose change & my knife in the truck. What did I go to the range to do, shoot targets or practice the D-Day landings? What I personally think is really funny is the guys who have the uber tactical 5.11 pants with their tactical knives in the pockets & tactical this & that hung offa them, what's up with that? Closet mall ninja's methinks.... I'm not saying that 5.11 pants are bad in & of themselves, just I can buy a bunch more pairs of pants from Wally World for the same money & not get upset if I tear a hole in 'em on a stage. Anyway, if you're an attorney, you should be well able to afford to buy another couple pairs of pants to shoot in.....

Another newbie to the site here saying hi. I'm not a Brit, I'm an Englishman ( ) but I live in the US & have done for over a year now. I don't miss one single thing about UK (well, maybe some of the food & the game shooting) but certainly not the stupid gun laws. If you get out towards Vegas, AZ, etc, stop in & see me in New Mexico, be glad to take you out shooting. I'm a few weeks shy of getting my 07FFL (same as section 5 dealer ticket) here so I'll have some full auto toys to play with too.... Bloody shame about the handgun ban, I was there for that & watched my collection of over 15 years get carted out the door. I have made up for it now tho', I buy at least one gun a week here, just because I can! Been bitten by the 3 gun bug so more toys to buy for that....! Great site BTW, lotsa good info, 2 thumbs up!