George Jones

OK Bret, how would you score it? Rationale for any answer.

Mike, You are correct. It is a common error. Anyone who has taken the RO class with me has heard this phrase: "Shots are shots. Hits are hits." Shots are procedural penalties applied after "Range Is Clear" and the time has been announced and recorded. Then, you go score targets and apply the scoring penalties (Mikes, FTSA and Extra Hits). It's a take the horse to water thing.

Anything which expands on the global knowledge base is always a good idea. Unfortunately, a rule change/addition is not a quick process and we always have to beware of unintended consequences. I will pass it on for consideration. Meanwhile, I will suggest a NROI Blog topic to help spread the word. You are subscribed, right? For those who may not know, you can reach the blog, use the link available on your profile page.

You do not apply multiple penalties for the same action/violation, UNLESS specific rules apply. In this case, the penalty for failing to perform a mandatory reload is specific: 10.2.4 - One per shot fired until the reload is done or the end of the stage. No limit. Rule 10.2.2 is a general rule which concerns stage procedures. To use it to apply an additional penalty when 10.2.4 is specific would be DJ. This is how it has been taught for many years. Unfortunately, bad local habits are hard to break.

Based on your description: REF It should not have activated without the door being open.

ZZT, The procedures you mention for USPSA are logical and are used at many clubs. The only variation I have seen is at clubs that do not have adequate side berms for uncasing the long guns. In those places, they restrict the handling to the safety area (uncasing/casing only) or at the start position. For SCSA, many clubs expect CF handguns to arrive at the box already holstered to save time. The uncasing/casing of CF handguns can be a significant time waster when the match is full and daylight is limited.

That's a tough call. (IMO) It would depend on how it's being carried. If vertical, a case can be made that it complies with 5.1.3 If not vertical, then (even though flagged) then it would most likely be UGH (no different than having drawn a handgun prior to command) and/or sweeping someone if that applies. Those long guns do provide a number of different opportunities for DQs. Tread lightly.

Consider a case to be the same as a holster. You do not draw (have functional access to the trigger) until you get the command. Same with a case. You cannot have access to the trigger either. Do not unzip until "Make Ready". Then, "Range is Clear" cannot be declared until the firearm is cased AND the zipper is closed. The other thing to keep in mind is the potential for sweeping during uncasing and casing. If you sweep yourself AND you are in contact with the gun, it's a DQ. If you are not in contact with the gun, it's not a DQ. I never completely unzip a case to avoid the potential for sweeping my other hand or arm.

Hi Kyle, I don't have immediate access to the question bank but if you PM me with details I'll follow up.

And there's always 2.3.3.3

This is an old topic and the answer hasn't changed in the last 20 years. These gadgets are a holdover from the days when not all race holsters were created equal as to reliability/retention. If it is not permanently attached (i.e. requires tools of some kind to remove) and can come off at Make Ready, it is a non-issue. Just take the danged thing off prior to approaching the stage and let those with creative opinions relax.

The "no more than one step" limit is not a stage procedure, it is a rule. Stage procedure is what is mentioned in the WSB i.e. "On the start signal.....".

There is no penalty specified because it's the RO's responsibility to control the stage. If the shooter does not receive permission (after asking would make sense), the command is "STOP". As long as the shooter complies, no penalty. If the shooter ignores the STOP command than the potential goes to 10.6.1. A warning not to do that again is simply a courtesy. A procedural is NOT in the rules.

I don't know "why" it was changed (above my paygrade). However, as written it still applies to a situation where the shooter was IN and has to re-establish IN before firing. If you start OUT (not yet IN) 10.2.1.2 does not apply. 10.2.1.3 does. The above is my opinion. You know who to go to if you disagree.

Sometimes (always) it helps to read the whole rule. Please note that 10.2.1.2 mentions "re-establish", meaning the shooter had been IN, then was fully OUT and needs to re-establish IN before firing shots. In that scenario, yes, one per shot.. 10.2.1.3 appears to be more relevant here. Unless shooting from outside provided a significant advantage (doubtful in most cases I would think) only one procedural would apply.

Let's not parse words. It's not about the shot. It's not about the draw. It's about the BEEP! and the move. Under 9.10.3 where the shooter does not move (didn't hear it for some reason?) the RO has to resolve that little problem but that is unrelated to the dot. 5.7.2 and 5.7.6 do not exclude shooter created "malfunctions". If I were to look down and see my dot is off before the beep, all I have to do is to not be in the correct start position and the RO cannot issue the start signal. But once the BEEP is issued correctly and the shooter twitches, the shooter owns it.

Not very good quality but hope they help.

You have to trim both sides of the forward corners and lower the right side mag catch hole about 1/16" I may have pictures available tonight.

This is what we have been teaching for some time now: - Coaching is only intended to be used for new shooters at local matches only. The shooter should have been offered and accepted coaching which comes from the RO, not from the peanut gallery. - The shooter must be informed of the nature of the coaching (reminder of reloads, etc.) - The RO may allow the coaching to be done by a specified person such as a parent. I prefer to avoid this unless I know both individuals involved. - Coaching has no place at higher level matches. - Safety issues and the RO's handling of those are unrelated to coaching. Safety always comes first.

You are correct.

in that caseSome of the opinions on this thread need to consider the first two sentences in Rule 9.7.4 --- If the RO knows he does not have the correct time, such as due to not picking up the last shot, then that time/score cannot possibly be conclusive. Timer malfunction (a mechanical or electronic failure) is not relevant in that scenario.

You misunderstand. The subject was about talking to a shooter about how close he/she came to a violation when the call was not made by the RO. You do not ignore violations at any match level. The difference with local matches is that you commonly have new shooters who need guidance. The RO has the option of Warnings (Muzzle or Finger - see Rules 8.6.1 and 8.6.2) that can be used during the course of fire. Once the COF is finished and no violation has occurred, the RO should talk to new shooters to assure they know how close they came. Those warnings and discussion have no place at higher level matches where new shooters are usually not found. Either the violation occurred and was called or it didn't.

I agree completely.

"Break" is incorrect. "Touch" is correct. Importantly, it's not the "grease ring" that needs to touch, it's the overlay which is the correct diameter. The "grease ring" is not due to cardboard stretching/shrinking when hit.

Great post by our favorite deviate. I would add one item to the pre-match approach. The toughest challenge is on staff shoot day where the problems/weaknesses first get identified. The issues can be minimized/avoided by having the entire stage staff shoot together and be on the squad which shoots their stage first. That gives them ownership right away and makes it more likely that any problems will be identified on the first go round, not later in the day when it adds additional problems (reshoots, etc).. For example: 10 stages and 5 squads (adjust as necessary) - The staffs for Stage 1 and 2 shoot on the same squad and start on Stage 1. The staffs for Stage 3 and 4 shoot together and start on Stage 3. Etc, etc. I have used this approach for years and found this to be effective. The only complaint you might get is that working staff may not be able to shoot with their friends. Might make for better focus, however. Just my .02