JGT

I bought the Razor and it arrived this morning. All of this has been said by people far more skilled and experienced than me, but for what it's worth here are my initial impressions and comparison with my two prior scopes, the Burris mtac and Steiner p4xi. The mtac was my first lpvo, I got it 5 or 6 years ago and I've had the Steiner on another rifle for maybe 2 years now. I haven't owned any high-end stuff like kahles, swaro etc so I don't have match experience using scopes further up the ladder. The razor is pretty darn clear. I'm not wowed by the glass clarity because the Steiner's is nearly on par but it is very good. Both leave the mtac in the dust, it seems cloudy and blurry in comparison. Where the razor really stands out to me is that the eyebox is so big I couldn't decide how far forward or back to mount it on the rifle. 1x is by far the best I've personally used, the fov is huge and the ocular ring completely disappears in use. Overall, I see what the fuss is about, this will be fun to use in a match, especially for close-up burner stages. That being said, if you can live with 4x, I think the Steiner is 80% as good (70% on 1x and 90% magnified) for less than a third the cost (I got it for around $400). The eyebox on the steiner is definitely not as forgiving and the 1x isn't quite as good either, but the glass clarity is really impressive for the price. It hasn't broken through many matches and two classes and I bang my stuff around pretty mercilessly. I do think the razor will have a minor advantage up close, but it may not be measurable on a timer. Sometimes the difference in gear is more about confidence / ease and repeatability of achieving a certain standard.

Now that the 1-10 razor is hitting the market, is the price of the 1-6 likely to drop? Are there any good seasonal sales or deals coming up in the next few months? I have seen the 1-6 for around $1k-1100 at times. Should I just get the viper? Is it really 85% of the glass quality for half the price? I shoot to 400 yards max locally. Thank you!

You guys mind putting up some impressions once you get them please? Looking at it for carry optics.

I'm also 6'5" so it makes sense that you'd be in the same boat as me. For 80% of shooters they probably don't have to worry about LOP as much, just pull the stock out a notch and go. I should make it clear that I'm a total FNG in competition shooting and you could fill a tanker with what I don't know. I might learn in 6 months that I have this all wrong. That being said, I try to pay attention and watch what the more experienced people say and do, and I can chime in with my direct experiences from classes or matches with some of the top folks. Flatland shooter, I agree with your point on firing hand grip pressure and the potential effect on trigger finger motor control. I grip the PCC pistol grip pretty much the same way / same pressure I hold a handgun: tight but not so hard it compromises my ability to manipulate the trigger.

I agree with you that in the picture it appears as though the stock is not fully extended on the buffer tube, HOWEVER, look at the distance between his chin and firing-hand thumb. It matches up with the Patrick Kelley video on length of pull or is even longer (3 fingers width distance). Link: In the picture, if Max were to reposition the gun such that the buttstock were parallel with his forearm while keeping the arm bent 90 degrees it appears as if it would approximately reach the crook of his arm / bicep. Further, if you look at his support hand, it is quite close to the receiver with elbow slightly bent, another piece of the evidence that the LOP on the buttstock is sufficiently long for his frame. When guys run the stock too short for their height/reach, they end up with their support hand much further out on the gun, even without doing the extreme Costa grip with the elbow locked and thumb on top of the handguard. Mr. Leograndis messes with his setup a lot and I have no doubt that it evolves over time, but this photo still appears (in my mind) to show a relatively longish LOP despite the apparent positioning of the buttstock on the buffer tube. Remember this is all relative to one's personal anatomy. edit: here's a link to a video where he has his new Limcat held with arm at 90 degrees and the buttstock is actually well past the crook of the arm / bicep. I could be wrong but I think he is not very tall.

Great points here regarding proper stance / grip. I took John Mcphee's 100yard carbine class over the winter and my big takeaway from the slow-motion video analysis was that at the beginning of the class, none of the shooters had their body weight leaned forward enough nor were any of us holding the gun tightly enough or pulling the buttstock back vigorously enough into our bodies. The difference that correcting these two factors made in our group sizes (standing, kneeling and prone) by the end of the class was astonishing. The same applies to recoil control / double-tap speed when shooting quickly. To Acer2428's point, there is definitely a measurable, quantifiable difference between holding the rifle loosely and with bodyweight back on the heels versus pulling buttstock in aggressively and maintaining an athletic stance with the weight forward. Even with my height and (over)weight, the recoil will still bounce me around, making double taps open up (A/C or A/D versus double alpha), if I don't mount the gun properly and get the right cheek weld, buttstock positon and lean into the gun with knees broken, weight on the balls of the feet, and shoulders forward of hips. Getting the buttstock positioned further into the centerline of the body as MemphisMechanic suggests is also helpful, but I still try to roll my strong-side shoulder forward and up toward my ear and drop my chin slightly to form a pocket for the butt of the gun between the pec / shoulder / cheek, then I really pull the gun into that pocket hard with both hands. I also have more of a break in my support-side elbow and that hand a little closer to me, not elbow all the way locked out and hand close to the end of the handguard. You want to maximize your contact with the rifle, kind of wrap yourself around it and get your weight into it. This all gets exponentially harder when you are also trying to move around, I struggle to maintain that upper body tension while shooting on the move. That's something I just need to practice more. I am still new to PCC, but in 5.56 carbine / shotgun I find that adjusting length of pull for your height/reach is really helpful. I'm large and most carbine stocks are marginal LOP for me at full extension.Those wacky stocks with adjustments for comb height, toe drop, cant, LOP etc are popular in 3-gun for good reason. It is far easier to get a consistent mount, proper cheek weld and eye position and thus superior recoil control if the gun is properly fit for your anatomy. Take a few minutes to make sure you have the right setup then practice mounting the gun as MemphisMechanic suggested. I try to get the LOP adjusted so that if I hold the rifle in my firing hand with elbow bent around 90 degrees, the buttstock touches my bicep. Some prefer a shorter LOP but in my experience you are then forced to compensate by pulling the gun in even harder. Over even a short time period, recoil and muscle fatigue will gradually open up a gap and the gun will start to bounce forward and backward as you shoot when seen in slow motion video. I'm pretty sure Max Leograndis had a video about his preferred LOP somewhere, and if I recall correctly he also goes for a longer LOP. edit: found the Max Leograndis thing on LOP buried in 2 year old youtube comments: "BTW I run my stock full out on the A5 tube. There is a noticable different in recoil control between the 6th and 7th positions. Having a longer LOP on a rifle is super super stable"

I'm patient, I'll continue to shoot production or PCC until one of them hits and the initial bugs are uncovered. I'm sure Holosun will eventually release a larger window version of the 507 too. I thought the SRO was shipping already and the Romeo 3 Max was projected for july, but I would certainly believe that either or both could get pushed back. Making a dot durable enough to ride on pistol slides is hard.

Picked up and shot the 17 yesterday. First time shooting a 17 or a gen 5, and it was a pleasant experience. I think I actually prefer the gen4 grip with finger grooves, but I do like the slight magwell flare and the trigger is better out of the box. Now I need an optic! SRO, DPP, or wait for the sig Max?

Definitely search for MemphisMechanic on the CMMG, he seems to have the most experience with that platform and has several great posts about it. The bolt system is innovative but ultimately I went with a standard AR9 for the huge aftermarket support and lack of proprietary parts. I was making the same choice between CMMG/AR9/MPX and ended up with a Taccom complete upper on a QC10 lower. I have been very happy with it. Go look at the thread I started when I was making the decision and you can kind of see me work through it in real time in response to feedback. I don't think you'll be unhappy with any of the 3 choices and at the end of the day what's needed is a ton of practice with the platform. I had expected PCC to be 'easy mode', but that is far from the case. There is a learning curve in terms of movement, positioning, and stage planning. Yeah you never (nearly never) have to reload and long shots are easier, but everything up close is slightly harder in my experience thus far. I think the biggest advantage of the PCC is when shooting while moving, so never stand still with a PCC if you can help it. Just my 2 cents based on my first few matches.

Thank you for the replies, I think I'm going to try out the 17 gen5 as I already have a 34 (gen4). Hopefully it will prove a nice middle ground between the long slide and the 19.

The 45 MOS was just released at the NRA annual meeting and has already shipped to dealers. Why do you say the 17 slide length should be the minimum? Should I get the 34 gen 5 mos? If so why?

I have a Glock 34 gen 4 that I use in production, however I've been wanting to try carry optics. I'd like feedback on what to buy for the purpose. Choices are: 1) brownells RMR cut Glock 17 slide and put it on my 34 frame 2) glock 45 mos 3) gen 5 Glock 17 mos fs 4) gen 5 Glock 34 mos Today I handled (but did not shoot) a Glock 45, it was my first time holding a gen 5 and I really liked the upgrades. It seemed to me that the new gen 5 trigger is quite a bit nicer than the gen 4. It's a more significant difference than I had expected. I also liked the magwell flare. For that reason I'm leaning towards purchasing a new gun rather than an optic-cut slide for my 34. However, I'm kind of stumped as to the ideal barrel length for carry optics. Although the sight radius won't matter with an optic, there are still differences in cycle time, balance and perceived recoil between the 3 slide lengths. I know some people prefer the longer slide even with an optic as it feels smoother, but others have said that a shorter slide is an advantage because you have a shorter cycle time and the dot snaps back on target faster (if you have good grip). Does anyone have experience with the 45 or 19x? Is there much difference in feel versus the 17 or 34? What's the latest thinking on slide length for a red dot pistol? Feedback much appreciated, thank you.

Thanks for the videos! I'd love to see more people posting their match or training footage to illustrate what they are saying. The retreat with weak hand on the rail and barrel pointed uprange while you run the other way makes complete sense. Max Leograndis has a video with the same technique. I would also love to see more PCC classes. Given the growth in the division I'd say there is a market, and the movement / problem solving is sufficiently different to pistol that it really needs a dedicated class.

SRO vs sig romeo 3 max for carry optics? Does sig win based on wider window or does trijicon win due to durability for slide-ride plus compatibility with RMR milled slides?

Any thoughts on this versus the new trijicon SRO? Looks like the window dimensions are similar but the sig is a little wider. SRO fits into the RMR footprint which is nice given the number of slides milled for that pattern.

Any thoughts on this versus the new trijicon SRO? Looks like the window dimensions are similar but the sig is a little wider. SRO fits into the RMR footprint which is nice given the number of slides milled for that pattern.

I have been very happy with the 510c thus far. The huge FOV really helps for awkward positions like crouching and hard leans plus shoulder transitions and shooting on the move without a cheek weld. The glass is clear and the reticle is very sharp / crisp. Brightness is perfectly adequate even on sunny days, I have not had to use the highest settings. I have thrown it in barrels and dropped it once and it held up ok but I haven't had it long enough to comment on long-term durability. The circle-dot reticle is nice if you do any shooting past 25 yards as you have a very precise point of aim. Up close the big circle works very well for speed. One advantage to the circle-dot that I don't see mentioned a lot is with hold-overs. At my local matches you often have to make A-zone headshots, hit a small piece of steel, or deal with overlayed no-shoot (hostage) targets. It's very handy to have additional points of reference so you aren't just floating the dot somewhere in space over the top of your desired point-of-impact. The circle gives you that extra reference point. I know exactly where to hold (center dot, halfway between dot and bottom of circle, on the bottom of the circle, etc) at <5, 10 to 15, and 20 to 30yd. For me personally that gives a little extra speed and confidence vs relying purely on feel to make those shots.

I purchased the Taran +10, the gen 2 lightweight version. When I first put it on, the follower wouldn't sink into the extension. I had to sand the back of the follower slightly, and I also slightly sanded the back of the inside lip of the extension. Both with very fine grit. I spent less than a minute on it, and since then it has worked flawlessly. It's a breeze to remove for cleaning. I was tempted to grab a goliath but I didn't like the OAL restriction and ultimately the capacity seemed like overkill to me. I also paid $36 vs $70 for the goliath.

I just assembled my first PCC. I used the Taccom complete 14.5" upper with the pinned brake and I'm very happy with it, the quality is great. I have heard mixed opinions on whether or not a brake is needed. As others have said, it probably depends on the load you are using. I also think it would do more on a shorter barrel. On a 14.5" to 16" 9mm, the effect will be incremental, it isn't going to be like the impact of a brake on a 7.62. Somewhere on this forum someone did some testing (MemphisMechanic maybe), see if you can search it. I will say that I think a 16" barrel isn't doing you any good in 9mm. If there were no NFA I doubt anyone would choose that barrel length for a PCC. Going with the 14.5" pinned saved a little bit of length and weight without the legal hassle of an SBR. A braced pistol isn't USPSA legal so if competition is your thing (I assume it is if you're on this forum), that option is out. The Taccom ULW (sleeved 5" barrel) is a neat workaround to the legal restrictions, but from my perspective it has some downsides: 1) the bullet is exiting the barrel behind where your support hand is on the sleeve. I didn't like this idea. 2) the sleeve could get dented, bent, or torn right off. 3) If you shoot coated bullets you might need to clean the inside of the sleeve at some point. I asked Tim about this and if I recall he said he hasn't cleaned his ever, so it may not be a problem, but there's a thread on this forum about the cleaning procedure. 4) you are reducing weight compared to a standard barrel and that might improve handling speed but it might also increase perceived recoil and possibly dot bounce. I was on the fence between these same two uppers. I probably would have been happy either way. After my first match I realized I'm so far behind the top dogs skill-wise that a minor difference in gear just doesn't matter. Pick one, go shoot, have fun.

I have the bmiller billet magwell and it has been awesome for the week I've had it. Precise machining, easy installation, feels solid on there. The size and angle of the funnel works really well.

Alright, I'm 3 practice sessions and 600 rounds into the new PCC. First match on Saturday. I've noticed two things so far: 1) this is going to blow through my ammo supply really quickly; 2) wow do blowbacks get dirty. Can you guys give me the scoop on AR9 cleaning and maintenance please? So far I've just wiped it all down and snaked the barrel, then slapped on CLP. I'm used to running my AR's wet but it seems like the AR9 needs to be a little more dry. I think I put on a little too much CLP after session 2 and it got really disgusting after today's range trip. This time around I lubed much more sparingly. Does anyone have a good cleaning and preventative maintenance routine that they run through? How often do you clean, what lube in what spots, what parts do I need to keep an eye on and what signs of needing replacement parts should I know? Thank you!

Well, I have a PCC now. Thanks to all who replied, this forum is great. Special thanks to Bwillis for additional assistance. I was originally leaning towards the CMMG guard but I decided to go with a standard AR9 frankenbuild because it's cheap, easy and you have more choices for parts. Here is what I put together: -Taccom complete upper, 14.5" with pinned and welded comp- not the ULW setup because I didn't like the possibility of denting, bending or snapping off the aluminum shroud. -QC10 lower, POF trigger -Taccom extreme bolt and multi-stage buffer with the newer short stroke kit (no wave spring, just a longer delrin spacer that replaces the metal one) -Holosun HS510c I already had the optic, grip and stock, so my total out-of-pocket cost was right at $1k thanks to a couple of discounts. I assembled it yesterday and because I got the complete upper and the QC10 lower comes with the bolt catch / mag catch already assembled there was very little to do. After assembly, I threw on some CLP and swabbed out the barrel. The entire process was incredibly painless and I think even the most mechanically inept person could handle it with these components. I took it to the range today for testing and sight-in at 25yd. I put 300 rounds through it with no malfunctions of any kind. I was shooting Blazer Brass 124gr. I wasn't trying to poke tiny holes, but from a kneeling position I was able to hold 2-3" groups of 8-12 rounds at 25yd to verify my zero was solid. I know everything is 1/4moa on the internet but I'm just being honest about my results. If I had gone prone or bench-rested it, and shot 4-5 round groups I probably could have gotten tighter results. I then moved to 10yd and ran some bill drills to get a feel for the recoil, then some transition drills shooting 2 rounds into 6 targets. I was extremely pleased overall. There is more recoil than I had expected for a 9mm, but it's straight back and very short / sharp so the dot doesn't move much at all. I didn't have my timer with me but subjectively I felt very fast in terms of splits. I am extremely pleased with both the QC10 lower and all of the Taccom components. Tim at Taccom picks up the phone himself when you call, which is awesome, and he took the time to help me out when I had questions about different components. After I ordered, he shipped the next day, and I can't say anything but good things about the whole experience. The fit, finish and overall quality of all the parts was top notch and compares favorably to anything else I've seen, including offerings from companies charging far higher prices. The extreme bolt is especially sweet, the coating made cleaning easy after the range. The ramped barrel is great, you can tell it is going to feed reliably just from the orientation of the mag / bullet / ramp. The buffer and short stroke kit are extremely simple but well-made, and it seems like it would be reliable and durable. Again, this is my first AR9 so I can only compare it to the MP5 / AK / AR15, but the speed of the dot bounce and return to target was very very fast compared to other stuff I've shot. It isn't the softest in terms of recoil, but it's a short sharp bounce and right back. The POF trigger was fast, and for the cost I think it's a great option. It feels heavier than the advertised 3.5 pounds but i don't have a pull gauge to measure and it may break in. The reset is good, and it seems like a high-quality and well-made piece. The rubber pads on the bottom of the casing and the KNS pins are both nice touches, especially on a trigger-eating blowback. The Holosun 510c is really nice, I can see why it is so highly recommended for PCC. The window is huge compared to my RMR or aimpoint, and the dot is very bright and noticeably crisper than most other sights I have seen (to my eyes). The small center dot (1moa maybe?) made it easy to get a small point of aim for zeroing but the larger circle made for fast shooting up close. If the battery life is close to advertised and the durability holds up then I'll be very pleased. My biggest concern is scratching or cracking the giant window when I throw the thing into a dump barrel. Complaints: I threw an old magpul stock on, and the darn thing shakes around on the tube, which I hate. Ordering a B5. The standard charging handle is also going, I'll pick up another raptor. The carbon fiber handguard is lightweight, but it's a little more slick than I prefer. I may add some grip tape in a few spots. Summers here get sweaty and i could see the carbon fiber being a problem. Finally, with the short-stroke kit, it can be hard to fully seat a loaded 33rd mag on a closed bolt. I'm going to take it to a match on 4/6 and if there's interest I'll post results, but realistically those will be more about my skill level than the rifle, unless something breaks. Overall I'm very pleased with what I got for the money, and if all the parts prove as durable and low-maintenance as they look, I will be thrilled. Thanks again for the help!

I'll post my impressions of the POF. I have experience with various AR triggers from Timney, Geissele, ALG, hiperfire EDT, and CMC but not the hiperfire 24's, Elftman or AR gold. This is also my first PCC so it may be a bit different than 5.56. Overall my thoughts on triggers are a bit odd. I have a ton of trouble running triggers with a very short pull and reset or weight under 3 pounds. Under match conditions when my adrenaline is up, I just don't run those well. My favorite trigger for matches is the Hiperfire EDT with the added strength springs. The weight (close to 5lb) and total pull distance are higher than what most would consider to be a top single stage competition trigger, but I shoot it far better than my Timney that has miniscule travel distance and a pull weight under 3lb. It may be because I shoot stock glocks, and my time on pistol vs carbine is like 5 to 1, so my finger may just be attuned to that glock-style of trigger. Perhaps if I spent a bunch of time with a high speed trigger I'd get good with it. On the other hand when the buzzer goes off at a match, my brain falls out my ear and fine motor control goes to heck, so I might just always stick with a heavier longer trigger. I do still appreciate lack of creep and grit and a nice crisp break. Overall pretty much any AR trigger I have tried has been totally acceptable, especially when compared to stock glocks or triggers on other rifle platforms like the AK. If the POF doesn't work for me I might switch it for another EDT, I really feel that trigger is a gem for the price.

thanks i got the POF!

I am building with a QC10 glock lower and taccom bolt. I would love input on triggers! Firstly, has anyone gotten the ALG ACT trigger to work with my setup or similar? Secondly, POF vs CMC? Both are available at very reasonable prices so if anyone has strong preference for one over the other I'd love to hear why. I shoot unmodified glocks and milspec AR triggers so all of these are going to be just fine for me in terms of feel, pull weight, travel etc. I care mainly about reliability and consistency. I definitely do not want anything that will double. Also if anyone has feedback on long-term maintenance for these triggers that would be awesome. I'm talking about how often you break firing pins, how often you get blowback gunk building and clogging up the works, etc.