Jeff226

1. Great. As the old people shooting .40 die off, who is going to give money to the USPSA and/or your local matches? 2. The fact that agents were overwhelmingly choosing 9mms as personally owned weapons and HRT choosing 9mms over everything else indicates that the people using them prefer 9mm. 3. I agree, that is why I said several times that it is the gun buying public who are buying 9mms that matter.

I agree it is a principle but it has been proven that .40 is rewarded too much. So all I am saying is the power factors for limited should be separate as I think correcting the formula would be an even more difficult task.

Statistically, the general gun buying public cares not about .40. Yes, a few suckers buy one if they run across it cheap at Academy but very few people outside of USPSA limited shooters seek them out. Regardless, I didn't bring up agencies. What 300 +/- LEOs do with their old .40s has no bearing on the viability of Limited major. The fact that high cap 9mms are about 90% of new handguns sold does. I said not "not more powerful than 9mm in a meaningful way." That obviously means I know there is a difference, but it means nothing in their selection process. Current 9mm meets their penetration requirements while expanding and retaining mass. It also breaks guns less frequently, costs less, requires stocking of fewer calibers, and it is easier for everyone to shoot. Switching was a no brainer regardless of who they are running through the academy. HRT can choose whatever they want to carry, they chose Glock 17s. You call the FBI firearms unit and tell them they are doing it wrong and can't be taken seriously. I am sure they will care as much as I do.

Then how/why did it become a "foundation" of IPSC shooting and the basis of the power factor based scoring? IPSC Motto The Latin words Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (DVC) meaning accuracy, power, and speed are IPSC's motto and form the foundation for competition.

I didn't bring up the agencies. 300 people carrying .40s in some minor LEO outfit has no bearing in USPSA as far as I am concerned.

If you had those then you would be aware of more people than just me that are advocates of limited minor.

Yes they are. I have at least 2 emails from Foley that say that exact thing. Ask him yourself.

Fewer and fewer guns are being offered in .40. Your agency is a drop in the bucket and is most likely a money thing more than an elitism thing. The FBI still has .40 guns but only because the agents carrying them haven't retired out yet. The gun buying public cares even less about .40 than law enforcement...which statistically doesn't care much at all. Anybody that is paying attention knows that .40 is not more powerful than 9mm in a meaningful way, even less so when loaded down to 165 pf.

You are missing the point. DVC says minor and major should both be competitive, that is why there is a power factor formula to begin with. The fallacy is that DVC still matters. Carry optics is gradually becoming open minor just like production is becoming limited minor. I am all for having power factors in separate divisions. So yes, I am all for you being able to shoot a 2011 in an open/optic minor division.

There are always people living off the grid I suppose. I don't start a majority of the limited minor threads here so there is at least one other person keeping IMA45DV8 entertained. The USPSA is entertaining the concept of making the whole thing minor PF except for open over some mutli-year transition. So there is apparently a flood of demand for limited minor among other things.

Why attempt to cater to anybody with any gun? Why not only allow 2011s with comps, 9 major, and optic required? Screw everybody else with their choices! Better yet, lets make USPSA PCC only...why cater to handguns period?? A limited gun in minor is competitive equipment. Why do we insist those be stuck in a division with a permanent scoring disadvantage to .40 caliber...a cartridge nobody wants unless they are super mega serious about USPSA limited? Nobody has to adjust anything. If they have limited major guns they keep shooting limited major. If they have a limited minor gun then they shoot in the separate limited minor division. It is so simple I can't figure out why it is so confusing.

No, I am not talking in circles. If those benefits actually existed, minor would be competitive at the major matches. It has been documented for years that minor is not competitive at major matches.

Dup

My panties aren't in a wad. Pulling a strawman that far out of left field is stupid. The whole DVC premise is dead, I agree. I am fine with that...I just want the rules to be cleaned up to reflect it. I am sure you have experience in most ways of being wrong...saying they are equally stupid is one of them. Plinkers and once a year shooters are not buying CZ Tacs and 2011s for limited...sorry...not even close to being true. No, my understanding is just fine. The sport was built on DVC. In major vs minor scoring, there is not enough D and V to make up for the benefit major gets for its supposed C. There should be benefits to reap in choosing either power factor...not just additional benefits for shooting major.

Nobody was talking about buying a single stack to compete in limited...what a stupid point. Thread is called "limited minor" not "which single stack for limited" If the rules have choices for power factor, and one power factor is always the "wrong" choice, then why pretend there are choices?

If they bought a gun that fits the existing rules for a limited gun...how did they buy the wrong gun?

You are right, there isn't a flood of "new" shooters showing up with new CZs...which was my point. There are however many people shooting new CZs and 2011s in limited minor. Many of them are A and above so it would be hard to prove they all have little interest in competing if the investment alone wasn't sufficient evidence. This runs counter to the assertion by some that limited minor is predominantly noobs without enough magazines.

Then who is buying all of these 9mm 2011s and CZ TSOs in 9mm? Who are these people constantly trying to change production into limited minor? It certainly isn't noobs who never shot production.

You are just changing the preferred round from 40 lite to 9 major by allowing 9 major. It does nothing better and nothing to address the complaint that minor isn't competitive or the growing requests/demand for a standalone limited minor division. I can tell a difference between minor and major in any gun...but the difference is not "significant" or worth an extra point for Cs and Ds. If major was factory .40 or .45 then it might be more noticeable...but not "significant"...165 pf in a 2011 is a powder puff. Going from 9mm to 10mm or 357/44 magnum is when it becomes significant in my opinion.

A. You are in denial or just dishonest. More people want limited minor than single stack or production B. I can quote you at least 100 times saying minor is not competitive in limited C. If we add one division, you will still have a spare toe or two left for counting

There is no harm in another division especially when it is the division most people want and it actually solves the problem. If they don't go all minor (except open) then production will become limited minor anyway...we are already half way there. What exactly does allowing 9 major in limited fix? Actually, don't worry about it...if major is significantly more difficult for you than minor in a 2011 pistol you probably have more important things to think about. Good luck!

Lame. I hang out in CO when I don't feel like loading .40.

Who cares what you like? There are still people who think it is fine to huddle on the tundra in grass huts and exist on yak fat...most of what goes on in the world means absolutely nothing to them either. As long as there is still a limited major for you to compete in, why is it that you would care enough to oppose a separate limited minor? If minor is at a permanent competitive disadvantage, then there is no sense maintaining this farce that minor and major should be in the same division for some unknown reason.

WWB is so spotty I wouldn't trust published numbers anyhow. Most blazer, PMC, Remington, and Federal are in the mid to low 130s. Somebody buying factory ammo shouldn't have to sweat the chrono. That is why the division doesn't make sense and needs to change.

9 major will always be a terrible idea in limited...please let it die. 9 +p+ is a nearly equally bad idea. Splitting limited into separate minor and major divisions is the only true solution. Minor needs to stay at 125 pf so factory ammo makes pf. Major should be raised back up to 175 for the same reason and also so the "real men" can be real men. A far as the real world people, .40 lead roundnose @ 165 doesn't kill you any better than .355 lead roundnose @ 125...even with the blue coating.