MikeBurgess

Production is dead and Limited is not far behind. when you see the 60% of shooters in CO understand that most of them used to shoot Limited or Production. the ones that shot limited had the ammo figured out and none that I have talked to switched because they didn't want to load 40 they switched because they wanted a dot. the guys I know that are still really shooting limited are doing it because they want to do it while they can still see the sights

I would bet it wasn't the second optic that bugged them but the lasers pointed at targets at the start signal. I can see where that would go against their no sight picture philosophy but would be pretty impossible to penalize a PCC for pointing gun down range stock on belt and by chance or intentionally the laser is on a target.

of all the ideas they presented I think this is the best of them.

the only hope I hold out for LO cost is with the Prodigy coming on line a entry level 2011 isn't really that much further up the price chain than a 320 with a TXG grip

so optics guns are equal to or bigger than all other guns combined? that sounds like its the optic that people want. doesn't IDPA also lets SSP have 15 rounds now, so no reload on most stages and still getting crushed by CO at 10 rounds, seems the answer is pretty clear.

A friend of mine did some practiscore data mining and the overall trends he found were interesting, this was pre LO so ignore LO for the time being Limited has been on a steady downward slide since CO started. Production peaked about the time CO was created then fell off a cliff and will be running SS and Revo numbers soon Open participation has remained very stable from before CO and PCC existed PCC peaked a couple years ago and seems to be stabilizing somewhere between the dead and competitive divisions SS is dead and remains dead Revo is dead and remains dead L10 is dumb and remains dead The biggest thing I took away from his info was when graphed every division without a dot that was above3% activity was going down and if anything the downward trend was accelerating. In the next few years all Iron sight divisions will all be niche divisions like SS and Revo. People always ask where are new division shooters coming from, the answer appears to be Production and Limited at the beginning of the data set (practiscore isn't that old) Limited was # 1 and Prod was # 2 in participation Open was #3 L10 SS and revo were irrelevant. Now CO is # 1 by a HUGE margin Open is #2 and Limited is #3 and falling PCC is #4 and steady Prod is #5 closing in on irrelevant. Looking at the DME report, I would say at 76% of total entries, its pretty clear that the membership wants to shoot guns with optics.

This, so much this. one of the best things to happen to my shooting was learning to shoot a revolver well. that long hard DA trigger forces you to get the trigger pull right.

I'll try to steer this back to the original (or at least where I started) point. There are many different people shooting USPSA for various reasons, I don't think (but am willing to be wrong) having a division for a newb with a G17 and 3, 17 round mags is going to change that calculus. if you want to play the fast paced first person shooter game that is USPSA then you are most likely not going to balk at using it as an excuse to buy a CO or LO gun (yes LO is dumb but that's a separate issue) Saturdays match had 79 shooters limited had 10 4 major 6 minor highest minor was 69% and was 20 seconds slower than the next place up who shot Major, power factor was irrelevant in the division results Open had 17 CO 33 and LO 6 for a total of 56 Optics shooters or 70% Production was 5 shooters the same as Revolver and edging out the 2 guys in Single Stack or 15% total low cap Looking at the results all 5 production shooters were new, I would also be surprised if all 5 had 100% legal gear for the division, most just see production just assume it means different than what the rules say.

I was just saying the fees are not a lot of money, so from a match management perspective an $8 match fee would be the same profit as idpa with no fee (I did state I had no idea on IDPA costs) I totally understand that less of everything is less cost, not arguing that at all. My original point was the various shooting sports are all different and appeal to different people for different reasons. I will admit that my personal reasons for choosing one match over another are likely different that the reasons others use to come to either the same or different answers. I will also admit that my assumptions about others decision making is likely wrong. As an example, my club ran a weeday evening USPSA 4 stage match for a couple summers, we started the match believing this would allow the diehard shooters to get some more stages in every month, what happened was most shooters were people that were not willing or able to give up a Saturday to shoot a regular match. We were wrong both on what the customers wanted and who they were

Activity fee is/was (I haven't looked recently) $1.50 Classifier fee $1.50 total of $3 per shooter so the same as 3 cardboard targets or about 10 rounds of factory 9mm ammo As far as match expenses go its pretty much right at the bottom of the list, but no Idea what IDPA charges

Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like your description of why you shoot IDPA is like shopping at a local thrift store, Its closer, cheaper and less ammo. It doesn't sound like you choose it because its a better product but a better value People choose their recreational activities for a variety of reasons, and we can learn a lot from thinking about what drives those decisions. Maybe clubs with low attendance should look at the why and see if there is anything they can change in what they do to broaden their appeal. Maybe there is an opportunity for a New USPSA club to specialize in smaller cheaper lower round count matches? So the real question is if you had a choice between 2 matches equal distance from home, 1 IDPA and 1 USPSA both took the same time to shoot and both only required 50 rounds what one would you choose?

what I was trying to say was IDPA is more martial art than racing but also it is not the "training" that some of its founders wanted it to be, its just a different game. Think Taekwondo, its a great "martial art" but a strict practitioner will get mauled by a MMA fighter that isn't limited to the prescribed methods of that particular discipline

I really don't think its very much about the money, I have seen very expensive guns in both sports, yes USPSA open guns can get silly expensive but CO guns are about the same and dominate both. I think the real dividers are freedom and speed. Some people really like the prescriptiveness of IDPA vs the freestyle of USPSA also many shooters find the general pace of shooting at IDPA less intimidating than the often blistering pace by many in USPSA. Neither group is right or wrong they are just different. In non scientific discussions with my friends I found it interesting that when they wanted to try shooting competitions they looked up stuff on the internet and most decided that IDPA was much less intimidating and went there for a while first, then transitioned to USPSA as their confidence grew. I was the odd duck out, I found the prescriptiveness of the IDPA ruleset intimidating and went to USPSA first.

I think we are slowly witnessing the separation of the action shooting sports. USPSA is the go fast real life, first person shooter game. IDPA is more martial art (not real world) ICORE is for the revolver masochists Multigun, is the I like to shoot everything and hate rules crowd. Steel Challenge, is the stand and shoot drag race I'm sure we will see some new Orgs form that will specialize in some other ways.

2 thoughts 1, New shooters are not competitive regardless of division and the equipment they own (I've seen a grand total of 1 exception to this in 15 years) I get its not nice to say and people want to believe if their equipment just fit a division to a T they would do better but sometimes the truth hurts and maybe we need to explain that better to said new shooters. 2, Do you actually think having a division where said new shooters equipment is at less of a disadvantage will make any difference in them realizing they really want to shoot in the division with the other 60% of the shooters in the match? I think not, I think it would be like the AMA adding a Harley class to motocross, it wouldnt be getting bat by the actual motocross bikes but and a few masochists' would do it but really its the wrong tool for the job and everyone would continue to buy the appropriate machinery. PS, I shoot Revolver on a semi regular basis so I know quite a bit about being a masochist, I also understand that when I do that I am using the wrong tool for the sport as it exists today.

My best solution to the high cap 9mm guns go where thing is in both LO and CO remove the optic required BS and just say optic allowed.

why have a pull weight then? or do you mean like a 4.5lb pull so tuned 2011s are out along with a large portion of the striker guns with trigger work?

I would bet that a iron sighted 9mm division L-Minor or Production like or whatever would quickly come to edge out SS revolver L10 and compete with PCC for smallest actual division. my experience with new shooters in my area has been most new competitors show up with a 9mm high cap gun, half of those have optics half of those are now LO guns not CO guns (normally magwells were the issue) the other half are shooting whatever plastic gun they owned. those that stick around find a division that they like and buy gear better suited to it. This weekends match registration so far (range rules preclude PCC (yes its dumb but its what we have) ) CO 36 O 19 Lim 8 LO 6 Prd 5 Revo 5 SS 2 61 optics shooters vs 20 irons and im pretty sure if revos were allowed optics 4 of those would change columns my $.02 trying to save production seems like a lost cause, when it draws similar numbers to Revo

One thing that maybe we are not taking into account, what are pistol shooting enthusiasts owning and buying? We are a niche sport that is not the cup of tea of the general pistol buying public, when you sort down to the tiny sliver of gun owners that are or may be interested in competing in USPSA what do they own or want an excuse to buy?

my spring philosophy is #1 Reliability, no mater what else it must run 100% the end no exceptions. #2 Dot return, I want the dot to come back to the spot it left from, current gun this is a 8lb variable last gun was a 7lb variable, this is also dependent on grip, mainspring weight, firing pin stop geometry, slide weight, comp, barrel holes, and load. for reference I have been running 17lb main springs, I am planning to do some experiments with heavier springs and different geometry firing pin stops but haven't got to it yet.

The club I MD doesn't have a formal document but we do have a good process on the financial side. The Gun Club has a separate bank account for the USPSA group. Several of the match staff have debit cards for this account to use for match supplies. The club treasurer maintains the bank account and can sweep money out of it to the main club accounts at any time. When any of the card holders use a card they email the treasurer the receipt, so far all parties have been much happier with this system than the previous cash and paper system. It is a trust based system where the club has the control to turn off the tap if that trust is violated, also the only risk involved is whatever funds the club leaves in the USPSA account. At my club I no longer submit a report for the match with attendance, income and expenses, because they see both the income and expenses in detail and the attendance portion was just a way to verify they were getting the right amount of money. At my club MD and match staff get a perk of the key to the props, at another local club the MD gets a free membership. Hope this helps

I'm 99.999% sure your ports are all doing something, yes some are doing more than others but they all do something. This is a frame grab from a 900fps video of my old open gun shooting HS6 with a 5 chamber comp.

I have one also got it with a gun I bought several years ago. It also fits my Ruger super GP100 something i found out after I bought a holster for it.

one problem with the RMR/SRO/Holosun footprint is the mounting screw holes are very wide, to the point that if your pistol has rear serrations the out side of the screw will be exposed. I didn't want to have one of the generic interchangeable mounting plates that are not shaped to match the optic so I made my own. Most other Optics have a better mounting screw spacing so directly milling into the slide is easy

ZZT recommends good parts, I'll add Brazos for slides and 2011 receivers and I have heard good things about Jem but not used them myself yet. That said I went a different route to start this journey. for my first build I bought a Foster frame (Caspian blem) then I bought RIA slide, Barrel and small parts off eBay for cheep. I figured if I was going to be learning I was likely to mess up something and I didn't want to mess up an expensive something. I was able to build a few nice shooting guns this way, about the only part of real building I missed was the barrels hoods and feet are not as oversized as the quality parts so little to no fitting there was required. Caution, I thought this would be a fun one time project, but now my garage is full of machine tools and I spend all my money on gun parts.