ZackJones
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Posts posted by ZackJones
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Submit a reclassification downgrade request. If you can't shoot your current class why remain in it? I did it for several of mine. I'd rather me a mid-pack C/B/A competitor than last M/GM regardless of match level. It's easy to do and you can request reclassification for multiple divisions. As a side benefit it gives me more accurate classification data to present to the BoD.
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Super squads are registering now. Staff tomorrow. Slot recipients sometime soon. I don't have exact date yet. General registration 3 Feb 2024 at 8:00PM eastern.
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Disclaimer: I just skimmed so I'm sure I've missed something. But here's my take on things I've skimmed:
1 - CO - Getting adjusted for the first time because we had sufficient data to make good adjustments.
2 - LO - Back in January 2023 my recommendation was not to add LO to SCSA and to let us see how it's doing on the handgun side first. From what I've seen it's actually doing well. What I haven't see is any good data on what people are shooting. Are they shooting new guns or just using their current CO gun? I believe HQ is trying to collect some of that data.
3 - Adding a new division may sound trivial at first but it's not. We would need to collect good stage times to do an good analysis for Peak Stage Times. I didn't do a good enough job for some of the low read divisions which is why we are top heavy with GM's in them. The good thing is we have had some GM's that are no longer shooting at that level request classification downgrade and I've approved every one so far.
4 - A "Stage Design Contest" is on the agenda for this month. Essentially it'll be to discuss the proposal for 8 new SCSA stages along with the rules and provisions for additional stages. This will be a long term project if we go forward with it. The reader's digest version is this - Take 5 to Go and design a new stage using the same plates that we use now on 5 To Go. Make it fit in a rectangle of X by Y dimensions. Repeat this for the other 7 stages. Submit your proposed stages, membership votes on candidates. We adopt as provisional stages to gather PST data. Once approved and we have PST's for them they will count towards classification.
5 - LO part 2 - Ultimately it's up to the BoD to determine if we add LO as a provisional division for SCSA. I have had some discussions as I've worked matches on both coasts about LO. The feedback I have received (We all know others may have received other feedback but from my own personal experience) I usually ask two or three questions (1) If we added it would you shoot it? Some yes, some no, some not until I could earn a classification. (2) Would you shoot it with your current CO setup or buy a new gun? Vast majority is use current CO setup. Others have said they already have LO gun and would shoot that and one or two say they are planning to buy one and are already classified in Open and don't want to shoot it there. Then I ask this - If we added LO which division would you eliminate to keep us at 13 divisions? The typical answer is None! Just add LO.
6 - Separate SCSA RO track - I think we'll see that but like everything it's gonna take time.
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On 10/9/2023 at 5:44 PM, Hoops said:
There was a bit of back and forth between the NROI staff and myself about it prior to the last handgun nationals. They all worked the match so we haven't talked in a little while but it's on the radar. I see 4 possible solutions:
1 - No holstered guns for any division for any stage.
2 - No holstered handguns while shooting other handgun (would have to add this to the rules)
3 - Holstered handguns permitted for any division for all stages except OL.
4 - Holstered handgun permitted for any division for all stages.
Ultimately the rules committee will meet and we'll pick a path forward which will be presented to the BoD for final approval. After a couple of weeks of healing up from my fall I'm leaning towards #3 personally. We remain stationary on 6 of the 8 stages. On Showdown we don't move on the clock so I can see permitting it on all stages except OL.
Thoughts?
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I've reached out to Troy to ask for an official DNROI ruling or to add this to the agenda for the rules audit for this year. I'll let you all know what I find out.
Speaking from personal experience I think this is a good thing and here's why. At the Area 6 SCSA match I was shooting RFPO Saturday morning. On Outer Limits I tripped and fell while moving between boxes (No, it wasn't captured on video. I wish i had been though.) I was fortunate enough to not drop my gun but being a right handed competitor I can almost guarantee any handgun that had been holstered would have fallen out during the fall. I was told I hit and bounced a time or two during the process.
Even though it's permitted with rimfire or PCC I always bag my handgun. One primary reason for doing that is being either MD/RM or stats officer I never now when I'm going to be called away from a stage to handle something and the last thing I need is to have to stop and find an RO to retrieve my dropped handgun should it fall out while responding to a call.
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This one is on me. At the Jan 2023 in person meeting I asked the BoD to exclude LO from SCSA as a provisional division. I wanted to see how well it would do in USPSA handgun matches and it's currently doing better than expected. I can see it being added in 2024 as a provisional division for SCSA. I would prefer to do provisional for one year to allow us to collect times to help us come up with a good set of Peak Stage Times for classification purposes. And no, club 13 won't become club 14 :).
Two questions: (1) Would you shoot in an SCSA match as a provisional division and (2) would you just shoot your existing carry optics gun or would you buy one?
I'd shoot it but with my CO gun. I wouldn't buy another gun to shoot it.
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On 6/3/2023 at 12:55 PM, jrdoran said:
Honestly, Steel challenge within USPSA doesn't appear to be actively managed, curated, and cultivated. It is just sort of there. I enjoy it, but feel like it is frozen in time.
As director of Steel Challenge for USPSA it sounds like I'm doing a pretty suck ass job then :(.
The top 20 list is outdated the way it works now. Production is worse that CO. There's top 20 guys that haven't shot a match in an extremely long time. I dod have a proposal to update the top 20 list so that it's either calculated on historical values like it is today or calculated based on current percentage. That should drop guys that haven't shot in forever off of the top 20 list.
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On 8/6/2023 at 11:04 AM, -JCN- said:
Hello, noob question. We have a well established USPSA club... but haven't done any Steel Challenge here.
Can our USPSA club just add a Steel Challenge intro event and submit scores to SCSA using our USPSA club information?
Or do you have to have a special Steel Challenge club endorsement or separate club for that?
Thanks in advance!
USPSA and SCSA club numbers are different so they can't upload results for you. As Gregg K pointed out you can affiliate the SCSA Club for free and turn around time is very quick. A few weeks ago we literally got a club up and running in a single day.
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Quick response as I'm about to head into a long work meeting.
Go to the classification look up page and click the link for Learn More About our Classification System. Item 6.
The process is pretty straight forward. If you want to request a downgrade for one or more divisions complete the form online. We will review and either approve or disapprove based on our review. Requesting a downgrade is voluntary. If you are happy being a 65%M class you can keep that classification if you want.
I can explain more later but I have to run.
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Safety off. Last sentence of rule 8.2.3.
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On 9/18/2022 at 5:01 PM, Joe4d said:
Id be happy with that, other than no revolver division.]
Oversight. Even kings make mistakes. ISR and OSR included. I like shooting a revolver.
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1 hour ago, RickT said:
Is SC destined to be nearly aligned with USPSA with regard to divisions?
No we have our divisions independent of USPSA handgun that's why we have 13 and they have 8. There could be any number of reasons why some divisions are better represented than others. At WSSC this year we recognized 12 of the 13 divisions and ISR was short 2 guns from being recognized.
If I were king for a day and staring a new shooting sport like steel challenge I'd have 8 divisions only:
Centerfire Open / Irons
PCC Open / Irons
Rimfire Pistol Open / Irons
Rimfire Rifle Open / Irons
1 hour ago, revolver45 said:You will see that SC caters to 4 divisions only. PCC; RIMFIRE; OPEN and CO. They really don't care about the rest if the classes.
You are wrong. We (USPSA) do not cater to any one division. We actively encourage people to shoot them all. That's one reason why we have club 13 so that competitors have an opportunity to shoot every division offered.
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20 hours ago, jrdoran said:
I found it interesting in some of the anomalies between roundabout and smoke & hope ( 108 / 103 ) where in some divisions roundabout has a lower new PST and in others smoke & hope has a new lower time. Tried to find a pattern of rifle vs pistol or low ready vs draw, but couldn't. Things are definitely more precise in the new times;
Interested in any insight in how the new PST were derived. Take RFRI vs RFRO for example. I guess the optic helps on the smaller plates of roundabout.
Each stage and division was looked at independently of any other stage and division. I've not tried to look for any tried like you're trying to do. One thing we have done this year is taken out the hand massaging of numbers. For example when we did our review with Mike Foley he wanted changes to be +/- by 0.25. We are now making changes based on what the numbers actually calculate out to. You can see this in OSR for S&H where the change is +0.16. That's what we calculated so that's what we've presented.
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23 hours ago, shred said:
Eh, reduced-size plates are a whole lot easier to move around and store, plus give the same visual target. Doesn't seem like a big barrier to clubs as they cost about what a 12" round does and they only need two or 3. Opens up opportunities for shooters that only have 25 yard ranges to practice all the WSSC stages.
A Club can do that now if they choose. It obviously won't count towards classification for that given stage but it would provide an opportunity to practice a close approximation of the official stage.
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8 hours ago, shred said:
Well, if we're piling-on about all the other things we'd like in SCSA, how about reduced-target stages for the 25 yard ranges? With a 25-for-35 scaled plate, Speed Option can be made identical in "moa" to full-size, and outer limits is only a few inches off, which is probably as good as a half-ass club match setup anyway.
Keeping a record of the highest classification earned is important to many geezers that got to M once and now are older and slower, and if matches around here are any indication, are a huge part of the sport like it or not. Let them compete where they land now, but keep a notations somewhere-- Current classification : B (highest achieved: A) or some such.
I've had some informal discussions regarding 8 additional stages that would be based on the current 8. For example SC-111 would be a new version of 5 To Go that clubs with limited width and depth could setup. I've been asked specifically about stages for indoor ranges as well. For the other 7 stages we would design stages using the same plates that we use now on that stage. This would permit clubs to run new stages without having to acquire additional steel.
Retaining your current (highest) classification will always be an option. Selective reclassification is something that each member must opt-in for.
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On 9/4/2022 at 4:44 PM, Darqusoull13 said:
How much are they wanting to make?
The only thing that doubles is ROs and steel. Reg staff, stats etc are all the same. Water is negligible. WSSC doesn't include shirts or lunch. Range is already rented up top. Heck the steel is already there.
So what am I missing?
The organization does not make money on any Nationals / WSSC match. This was announced at the membership meeting at WSSC.
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On 9/4/2022 at 4:23 PM, Joe4d said:
why join and be active in an ORG that doesnt care about the game I want to play and I can play without joining ?
I take exception to your quoted statement. I care and I'm part of the BoD. I report directly to the BoD regarding all matters for Steel Challenge. Feel free to contact me directly (zack@uspsa.org) and tell me exactly how the org doesn't care about Steel Challenge. I'd love to hear your feedback and the opportunity to explain how we do care.
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On 9/1/2022 at 2:19 PM, Joe4d said:
Been pointed out in other threads Area coordinators dont seem to care that much about SC RO certification.
There may be some area directors that may not seem to care but I know for a fact there are those that do care and would support a separate SCSA certification.
Given this seems to be a pretty hot topic for many of you and if you're an active USPSA member email your area director areaX@uspsa.org (obviously replace x with 1-8) and tell him your thoughts about it. Unless you speak up directly to someone that can make a difference we'll never get it.
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19 hours ago, skip62 said:
Hey Zack, why did I have to come here to find the link? Why isn't under resources or something on the SCSA site? I do go to the website, I hardly ever come here, but a friend referred me to this thread. It should actually have it's own heading on the SCSA site, so people would see.
It's actually listed on both web sites and has been plastered over FB. It'll be in the Down Range email blast as well.
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12 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:
I think things are fine the way they are... Options 3 and 4 are ok as long as you make them optional.
I've talked to Troy about a separate Steel Challenge RO program... He is dead set against it... He even wrote an article in the USPSA newsletter saying why he is against it.
3 won't be optional. We will restore times for everyone. 4 is purely elective and the member must take action within the timeframe allotted.
Regarding separate RO path I understand Troy's stance but like me we do what at the BoD directs.
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18 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:
Slots for WSSC gets fixed by running 16 stages, 2 matches. You get enough ROs by 1) training them for free and 2) paying them better to work the match.
Not gonna happen. We looked at it and from a financial standpoint it's not viable.
I'll eventually see your non-PC comments and we (USPSA) will take them under advisement.
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3 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:
Zach, I know you are trying and we all appreciate the time and hard work you are volunteering.
However, I'm against pretty much all of this. None of these proposals work towards increasing membership in the new shooter category nor do they grow the RO pool. These are the 2 major issues holding SCSA back and it's going to get worse as Area, Major and Section matches become more popular.
These changes are small potatoes, and to be honest, don't add real value to current members.
I'd much rather see the SCSA RO cert independent of USPSA as well as SCSA investing in covering RO Instructor fees for New ROs.
I would also like to see a detailed plan on recruitment and retention of new shooters with emphasis on NO prior SCSA experience.
And here I thought you were a friend :).
It's okay that you're against them. I fully understand that no matter what we do not everyone will be happy; however, these are things that were proposed back in January at the in person BoD meeting and I have a duty to follow through on that which is what I've done.
I would disagree that they don't add any real value to current members. I think each one does for a variety of reasons and not all of which were included in the proposals posted. I personally know of some USPSA members that have let their membership expire due to being over classified. I see it as an opportunity to win some of those people back.
I have heard, on more than one occasion, that SCSA competitors want their own RO path independent of USPSA handgun certification. I'm one of those. I can't tell you the last time I've called 2 alpha or pasted a target and I don't ever plan to do that in the future. Splitting the RO certification paths falls under DNROI and his team. I will bring it up to them as I'm hearing this more and more often.
Now that the presidential election is finalized give us some time to work with Yee-Min and see what his take is on things.
BTW PM or email (zack@uspsa.org) me your address. I need to send you your club 13 coin.
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22 hours ago, 10mmdave said:
USPSA has a forum ??
Yes ago there was one. It's long gone.
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On 9/2/2022 at 12:27 PM, Racinready300ex said:
I was thinking the idea was if you're best times were GM but you don't train like you used to and are only shooting M now you could get your scores deleted and start over.
That's how it will work. If you hold a GM classification but your percentage is below 95% and you elect reclassification you will get dropped to M or A or whatever your matching percentage works out to be.
SCSA Classification Dilemma
in Steel Challenge
Posted
Just a general tip - instead of using any of the generic "support" or "classification" or "office" USPSA email addresses email me directly zack@uspsa.org. I've seen it take 2 weeks before an email to on of those mail boxes gets forwarded. Granted this was over the holidays but emailing me direct is the best option.