I use 4.8. gr with 135 gr bearcreek bullets in my glock 17 (I have a KKM) barrel. I use them for idpa. They work very well for me. I am going to switch to 231 because it is a little smokey. I was shooting over a car at a match last weekend and I couldn't see the target, that and the sun was in my face. Just my 2 cents