Hammbone

Okay, it's time for an update - I apologize for the novel. I got my Witness sent back to EAA. I spent a week trying to figure out the best way to ship it. Thanks for everyone's support here. In the end, a local FFL gave me carbon copy of his license to take to the US Post Office. I didn't have any issues. $20 to ship Priority Mail + $14 insurance. I sent it on a Saturday morning, EAA received it Monday. Wednesday I sent an email to EAA Customer Service to confirm they received it. EAA promptly responded to my email and said that they had indeed received it and determined that they would be replacing the gun. HOWEVER, they don't currently have any 9mm's in stock, so I have to wait for a shipment from Tanfoglio. Now my wheels start turning. I proceed to get hung-up in a endless do-loop of "what if" questions. It's cost me $35 to ship it. Per their warranty verbiage in the manual, I'm supposed to pay return shipment (another $35). Plus, now that it's a new gun with a new unique SN, I'll have to pay the FFL to transfer it back to my name (another $25). Wait a MINUTE! I was going through live with no issues and all of the sudden this how deal is going to cost me over $100. That doesn't seem right. What if the new one has the same issue? I'm going to get stuck in a loop of paying $100 repeatedly until it gets made right. How much is this going to cost? How long will this whole process take? I called EAA CS (the gal I spoke with on the phone was VERY nice and professional). I explain that I work in manufacturing and that there's a casting defect. I have a level of uncertainty regarding the foundery's process control capabilities. I have no level of confidence that the next one won't have the same problem, or worse, the problem could be an inclusion or porosity in a high stress area that is not detectable until the frame fails. I proceed to just ask for my money back. (BTW - has anyone checked their pricing in the last 6-8mo? HOLY CRAP! My $600 gun is now a $1,000 gun new). The CS gal did not say "no". She said that she understood my perspective, but there policy is to repair or replace. In my case it was replace. I would have to speak with the CS Manager to do anything else. So I asked to speak with him. He's busy and has to call me back. He calls me back within the hour. I felt like he was on edge ready for me to start a fight. But I didn't. I was polite and cordial - as was he. (I'm sure in a CS role, you get to deal with a$$holes all day long - I didn't want to be "that" guy). I reiterate all of my points to the CS Manager. He understands but can't make it happen. I'm going to get the gun replaced and that's that, but I have to wait for the shipment to come in. He did say that he'd make it write with the cost of return shipping and FFL transfer. How this will happen is yet to be determined. So that's my CS experience thus far. Pretty good. I'm not getting my money back like I asked, but I still feel like they're trying to do their best to make things right. That's fair.

Yep. I've come to this realization. I'm meeting up with a local FFL tomorrow. Otherwise I have to drive 30mi to a UPS facility and their hours SUCK! Getting this sent is a ROYAL PIA!

Thanks for sharing. I hope I have the same experience. I'm still messing around with getting it shipped. I found a local FFL who will help me, but he can meet with me until Friday.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I hope all goes well. Now I just have to figure out how to get it shipped. I've done lots of reading. I'll probably end up driving 30 miles to a UPS Store and paying out the nose for next day shipping.

I haven't hung out here for a while. I jumped on because I need some insight. I have had a Witness Elite Match large frame in 9mm for 3yrs. I bought it new in April 2014. Anyway, I took the grips off for the first time a couple days ago and noticed the frame is cracked where the backed portion of the mag well opening meets the back strap. It does look like a ductle fracture or fatigue. It looks like a cold joint in the casting. As anyone seen this? I contacted EAA and sent pics. They've instructed me to send it in for evaluation. I've read some not so great things about their customer service. But I guess I'll see for myself. Perhaps I'll have a good experience.

Yep. That's exactly what I did. Worked beautifully!

I slugged my barrel. Comes in right at 0.356"

Thanks for all the help guys. I just acquired a Ruger Blackhawk .357/9mm convertible... with plans to shoot 9mm with it. The only beef some people have is that they're not as accurate with 9mm as they are .357. The guys who reload have no problems as long as they use .358 9mm bullets. I'd "like" use the same bullets in the Blackhawk and Witness. I just slugged my Witness tonight and it measures right at .356". Chamber measures .384". Looks like .358" bullets may work just fine. Thoughts?

Okay, I have to admit ignorance here. I've been actively shooting and reloading for only about 3 yrs and this concept of an expander plug is a new one for me. How exactly does it work? I assume you basically "swage" the chamber larger to accept a larger diameter cartridge, due to using a larger diameter bullet as per allowed by barrel based on measurements taken after slugging the barrel? (Assuming the diameter bullet required by slugging doesn't chamber?)

I've been reloading for about 3yrs now. I've played around with various bullets. Mostly plated and epoxy coated (i.e., Bayou's). I have exclusively been shooting the epoxy coated leads for the past 2yrs. More specifically, I've been shooting 135gr ø .356" epoxy coated lead with a Brinell Hardness of 17. My bullet supplier has oversized bullets available and says some guys are getting better accuracy out of ø .357" or even ø .358" in the 9mm semi-autos. I have an EAA/Tanfoglio Witness Elite Match. I'm curious if any of you reload 9mm for a Witness and if so, do oversized 1) work? 2) improve accuracy?

I have a Witness Elite Match 9mm. Absolutely LOVE the pistol. Best semi-auto I've ever owned or shot! My question is for reloaders - what diameter lead bullets work best in the factory barrel? I've been using ø.356" 135gr coated bullets (like Bayou's) with good luck. However, I know some 9mm shooters go for ø.357" or even ø.358 in lead and see improved accuracy.

Thanks for the replies guys. Yes, I do have an issue with my 135gr Bayou bullet loads. These are loaded to 1.155" COL. My dummy "max-length" round I have tells me the bullet starts to engage rifling at 1.130". With the gun disassembled and barrel in my hand and I drop this round in the chamber, it's obvious that the bullet prevents the case from seating on the front edge. So I do have an issue there. Unfortunately, nobody lists data for 135gr bullets for 9mm. What I do is, for a starting point, I linearly interpolate start and max loads based on data from 124gr and 147gr. I start at the lowest and work may way up slowly while chrono-ing every load. Based on linear interpolation, I'm at what I think is near max load. I'm using 3.8gr of TiteGroup. Velocity is 1060fps, so PF is 143. I'm a little nervous about just seating the bullets deeper another 0.020"-0.030". I actually sold my M9, so two things: 1) I can't use these rounds in it any more, 2) but I can focus on optimizing loads for the Witness. I've only got 50rds made up this way, so it's no big deal if I have to pull them all. (I sold the M9 because I don't see myself ever using it again - and I'd like to focus on optimizing one set-up versus being only okay at multiple). Ultimately, I'm really inquiring to see what folks have to say about what COL's work best for them in their Witness Elite Match's. I understand I may find a COL that is best for accuracy but may not feed well. With no knowledge going in, I have a lot of ground to cover to figure out what she likes. I just thought I'd get some input if others have already been down this path with this particular gun. Thanks.

I just picked up a new Tanfoglio Witness Elite Match in 9mm over the weekend. Sad to say, I haven't even had a chance to put a round through it yet. I had previously spent a LOT of time and effort developing loads for my Beretta M9. Looks like I get to start all over again for this baby. Some initial investigation suggests this Witness isn't going to be as forgiving on COL. I've read some rules-of-thumb on here about figuring out MAX COL by making a dummy round and figuring out where the bullet just starts to touch rifling, then backing off 0.010" or so. Well, those numbers are less for the Witness than the Beretta. I'm just looking for a good starting point from folks who may have experience with this pistol. My reloading inventory comprises of: Bullets: Bayou 147gr coated lead Bayou 135gr coated lead Berry's 147gr plated FMP 124gr TMJ Powders: N340 HS-6 Power Pistol Tite Group Honestly, I don't compete (officially). I just hang out at a club with an indoor range and punch holes in paper. From time to time we have friendly accuracy grudge matches. So ultimately, I'm on the pursuit of accuracy more than quick follow-up shots.

For those that are interested.... I gave up on the Berry's bullets for this powder. 4.1gr with Bayou 147gr bullets seated at 1.155" OAL made a sub 1" group at 15yrs. Average velocity was about 962fps.

I know there's a LOT to be read about N320. But I picked up some N340 and worked up a few loads. I'm trying to figure out this powder. I've got two bullets I'm focusing on using with it right now. Berry's 147gr and Bayou 147gr. Vihtavouri's manual says the load range is 3.9-4.3gr. I loaded up some Berry's at 3.9, 4.1, and 4.3, and Bayou's at 3.9 (wanted to see the difference in velocity between the two bullets before I loaded more). I shoot 10 rounds of each load at 15yrds from a bench. Here are my results: Berry's 147gr w/N340, WIN brass, WSP primers, 1.150" OAL 3.9gr - 870fps, 127.8PF, 3.72" group 4.1gr - 906fps, 133.2PF, 4.04" group 4.3gr - 940fps, 138.2PF, 3.98" group (No signs of over pressure) Bayou 147gr w/N340, WIN brass, WSP primers, 1.150" OAL 3.9gr - 926fps, 136.1PF, 2.39" group A couple of observations: 1) As you can see, I get about 56fps more with Bayou bullets. (Interesting...) 2) Accuracy with Berry's on this combo was horrible. 3) Not super impressed with the Bayou group either... but worth pursuing working up the charge. Here's the ultimate question: Does N340 have a sweet spot with 147gr in terms of accuracy? The very little info I've been able to find on N340 touts how accurate it is. I'm not feeling the love just yet.

Here's my two cents: IFF (IFF=if and only if) powder density is constant (and it should be pretty close in a given container), AND if you can measure volumes consistently, then we're talking tomàtos and tomätos. (i.e., constant volume = constant weight when density is constant). For me personally; I know I have a WHOLE lot of other fundamental skills I need to master before I start splitting gnat hairs.

What/who's die do you use for your final crimp. Can I acheive th is with Lee FCD? My understanding is that the crimping mechanism on a Lee FCD works a little different than say a Lee seating/crimp die.

When you're referring to the "crimp" die here, I assume you're speaking of the FCD? ...so on the seating/crimp die I'd just have it backed out so that I'm not crimping, yet have the stem adjusted to seat to the correct depth?

I use all 4 holes. I size on 1, expand & drop powder on 2, seat and crimp on 3, post size with FCD on 4. On my latest test batch I backed out the crimp on the Factory Crimp Die and just used it for post sizing. Not sure if that's the way to go or not. Just experimenting there.

Newboy - your right, my mistake. This is coming from my sizing die. I set it up per Lee's instructions. The bottom of the die just barely contacts the shell plate when the ram is fully extended. And yes, it chambers just fine. No issues there. I'm pretty confident it's not a high pressure issue. I'm loading some pretty tame stuff, and I've never noticed any high pressure signs with the primers. I am seating and crimping with the same die. On this particular round, I noticed something felt different when it happened. And it was during the sizing operation.

I have a Lee Classic 4 hole turret press running all Lee dies. I lightly lube every 10th case. Periodically I get this odd crease from the bullet seating / crimp die. (See image, just above the extractor grove). What's going on? Should I dissassemble the round when this happens and dispose the brass? This happens to be Winchester brass with Bayou 147gr bullet, lightly crimped to 0.381". I can't say for sure if it happens on all brass, but I've noticed it a few times with Winchester. Also, just for reference, this is the 3rd time this piece of brass has been loaded.

The material is .045" thick, so the grip grew .090" in all directions. I'm 6'3" 250lbs and have pretty good sized hands, it doesn't bother me at all. Before I did this I was contemplating buying an extra set of factory plastic grips and milling out the checking so I could inlay the rubber. I'm glad I didn't go through the effort because if anything, the most noticeable difference in thickness is front-to-back, not side-to-side. My gun is an M9, I'd be curious to see how these felt on a 92fs with the undercut under the beaver tail.

I just finished making these grips, and so far...I'm loving them! They're similar to the Talon rubber grips I have on my Nano, but a lot more agressive (these are rubber too).

I now have some Bayou 147gr and 135gr to play with (In addition to my Berry's 147gr and Frontier 124gr). I also picked up some n340 to add to the inventory. Between Titegroup, HS-6, PowerPistol, and n340 I ought to find something she likes.

I just found some WSP's at a small gunshop in a neighboring state. Also $40 per K. He had 15K, I took 5K.