Nathan

I have the 3-Gun model and so far I really like it! I haven’t done a ton of swapping around, but did a trial run of 9mm Open to .40 limited in 300-some seconds. It seems to shoot nice and soft/flat (most of my shooting has been in 9-limited configuration, but a few rounds of .40 seemed nicer to shoot than my Edge), and the slide is buttery-smooth. I think I’m drinking the Flavor-aid on the locking-block method reducing felt recoil, then combine that with the Evo grip... I was looking at other custom shops, and really don’t think you can compare the Honcho for value, and quality seems to be on par from what I’ve seen. I think you’ll be very happy!

Enough to verify it’s a thing, but nothing too scientific, which is odd for me. I’m usually the guy who charts and documents dope as much as possible, but with a gun shooting approx 6 MOA I haven’t gotten too deep into it. I just know if it’s the beginning of the stage hold center, if it’s late hold low left, lol. With the exception of Hard as Hell’s 100 yard spinner I’ve not left a slug target FTN, yet! And for those who were there, yes I went for it.

Just stumbled across this oldy, and I'm curious... What is the going philosophy on this subject as we are coming up on 2018? I've heard of multiple people removing the rib on their 3-gun shotguns in an effort to avoid the ol' slug drift as the barrel heats up, which makes sense to me (barrel heats and elongates, rib heats more slowly, not elongating as much, pulls barrel up). Is the barrel going to be less rigid without the rib to the point that any accuracy benefit is negated because you're firing slugs through a noodle? Has anybody here tried this? I have noticed the effect, my slugs hit poa/poi when cold, but after I fire a bunch of rounds in a match and I need to hit slugs, I notice they are hitting high, and usually to the right, as well. Not going to fire up the Dremel and torch yet, but I find the idea intriguing as many matches I go to seem to like to make tricky slug shots part of their stage designs, and they aren't always early in the stage.

Much good advice already given, I zero similar to Jesse T., i.e. 300 yard hash if the reticle has one. One thing to consider: If you travel to matches and are concerned about your optic/sights getting knocked around, some ranges may only have 50 yds available before the match for verifying zero, so whatever your zero it’s probably a good idea to know your offset at 50.

lol at this point you snd I should just be having a private conversation. :-D I think there is a benefit, as the added length of the suppressor, even with (possibly) lower pressure for the suppressed portion, seems like it must increase the duration of the gas pressure. I’m assuming that in typical operation the carrier is still traveling rearword when the bullet exits and gas pressure decreases, but in a situation with a suppressor the carrier is accelerated for a longer duration, even in a system like yours where it is not as much longer as a traditional gas system plus suppressor. Adding resistance to this acceleration is likely a good thing. After all this, I was thinking: I bet Silencerco has a vast knowledge of the physics behind this, and could probably talk you through it. If so, again, keep us (me) updated here, please!

Flat, it just feels nice. Makes it feel a bit more 1911’ish.

Speak of the devil and he shall appear! I remember this video, forgot there was a .10 in there. Sigh, I feel so inadequate. I’m capable of those splits, but I’da had 3 no-shoots and a mike. But anyway, it’s confirmed: It is absolutely impossible to outrun an AR, even in .308!

I don’t know the market for .243 DPMS’s right now, but my experience with this kind of stuff is that you’re not going to get much credit for aftermarket goodies (trigger, bipod, scope, etc). If you need to offload it my suggestion would be sell the unfired rifle in factory form, and the other pieces separately, preferably in factory packaging (if you have it). If you’re selling to a buddy and just looking for a fair value, unfortunately for you I’d say the price if the rifle plus optic is probably a decent balance, the trigger is a bonus for them. Personally I’d keep the bipod if it’s a good one.

If you watch that video, 5 shots in under a sec (which I think is where .19 came from) includes his reaction time, so his splits were much quicker. Even so, around .10 is about the fastest I hear of people achieving. OP, I would not be concerned about outrunning your system. You have a very fast trigger finger (that is an impressive video), however I seriously doubt you’ll ever outrun your bolt. I know Pat Kelley has outrun shotguns, but I’ve never heard of anybody outrunning an AR.

Nitrider, that’s hardly a child-like drawing, it expresses your concept pretty clearly, I think. When I first started handloading I noticed the more equals less thing with bullet weights and powder used, and figured it was because the bullet was harder to get moving and you don’t want all that powder behind it combusting with nowhere to go. Looked into it, and found out I was partially correct, but there is also the added effect that powder burns faster as pressure increases, resulting in even higher pressures... So your heavier bullet that is taking more force to accelerate (i.e. accelerating more slowly, resulting in less volume for the expanding gases to fill), results in higher pressure, resulting in a faster powder burn, so you drop powder charge to keep pressure in the window. Therefore, your results make sense in that the powder may be still burning, leading to greater expansion and pressure while a 55 is in the can (since the bullet accelerates more easily and there is more powder to burn), and a 77 may be done burning before the bullet clears the end (and having achieved a more thorough early burn may make it more efficient at your barrel length). The problem is, these manufacturers are likely not all using the same powder, so burn rates could affect the theory, but it sounds like that’s what you’re seeing. What I’m having trouble wrapping my head around is how to bring these differing pressure spikes into a fairly close operating window. I guess by increasing spring-rate/mass, it should take more gas to move it, and the increased volume results in a better balance of the different pressures? But more gas at a higher pressure will still result in a more violent cycle, so it may end up after everything that you have to settle...

That all makes sense to me. Just trying to “think out loud” and reason through this: Do you think part of the ammunition sensitivity is due the gas operation window being “pushed” from a length of bore into the suppressor, and the extra volume available for the gas changes the pressure the gas provides when the bolt is cycling? So instead of increased pressures, you may still be getting an increased length of time there is gas pressure, but the amount of pressure may be lower? Therefore, it may be more sensitive to what powder is being used (still burning vs done) and bullet weight (heavier bullets pushing back harder to begin with plus taking longer to exit)... I’m not sure, just trying wrap my head around it. I’m very curious how your process goes, I’ve been planning a similar build.

Thanks for the share, Slvr!

I could be off, since you do have the longer gas system, but I was under the impression that as awesome as low-mass systems are, they tend not to play well with suppressors... I’m thinking your heavier spring expanding the sweet-spot supports this theory. If you have a full mass system handy I’d be curious to see how it ran. My suppressed rifle feels almost as soft to me as my 3-gun rig; I’m sure it does have more recoil, but there is so little muzzle rise my brain doesn’t notice it. If you really want to utilize the low-mass, I would look into an even heavier buffer spring, maybe one intended for a .308 or .458 socom or something?

I know it’s not necessary, but now without it the trigger seems a bit thin, especially after running the flat Elftmann. I feel like Goldilocks. I ran it a bit more the other day and think I do actually like the shoe, but I’ll have to run a few matches to see if I ever get frustrated with it.

Not really a brake, but I hear the Salvo 12 is nice ;-)

FWIW, mine sets off magnum & military primers, I’d guess if you contact Elftmann they’ll take care of you. After determining yiu tightened those base screws, hahah!

Yep, left side here, as well. Mine took a little fiddling, I put it in the handguard (Versamax) and it was pushing on the tube hard enough to make the opposite side touch the barrel, but a little shaving here and there and I got it off the tube and The handguard back off my barrel.

Hahah, if only my psychic powers worked this well all the time, I might start playing the lottery!

I currently have one, the flat 3-gun model. It has a really nice, crisp break to it, and the hammer hits with plenty of force (I wish there was a standard, advertised measurement for this, but it sets off military & magnum primers). One reason I went with it was I refuse to put in a trigger that can have the geometry change on you, and although the trigger pull weight is adjustable it is just changing the amount of pressure on a “resistance spring” (doubt that’s what Elftmann calls it), it does not affect hammer force or anything else, and I can’t see a way any of the geometry can get changed minus 1 thing: Elftmann makes a big deal out of the way you install. There are two set screws that have to be tightened against the floorplate of the receiver, they claim almost all their issues are due to these not being tight. I don’t get why these are so important, but it’s a thing. However, these screws have “jamb screws” that also use loctite and keep them from backing out, so should be safe. As to running it, I came off a Wilson Combat S3G, I always liked that trigger a lot, more than CMC, Timney, Geissele, and a handful of others I tried, due to its clean break and short, positive reset. My double-taps were really fast and easy to repeat. I won’t go back for two reasons: 1) The break on the Elftmann is that much nicer to me 2) WC doesn’t offer a flat trigger, theirs now feels like a really thin, curved wire, and I love that flat feel now. The downside to me, is the reset is not as positive. I’m sure it is largely due to me having the trigger on the lightest setting, but it hurts my double-taps in that I have to consciously make sure I let off far enough. I am playing around with a Hiperfire in another lower, and am torn which to make my primary due mainly to this. For me, it’s the balance if the Elf being a bit nicer for slow, aimed shots, the Hiperfire I can double close hoser stuff faster. I’m not sure how I feel about the Hiperfire plastic shoe, but it definitely doesn’t seem to hurt my trigger pull. I’m sure somebody will be along soon to tell you to go AR-Gold, I can’t speak to the comparison as I’ve never run one.

I just upgraded from a Young Mfg lightweight to the JP LMOS (aluminum). With the black spring it was a noticeable difference, and my rifle was pretty flat to start with. I was quite tempted, as I was experiencing some carrier bounce before the switch, by this: https://www.rainierarms.com/master-of-arms-ar-15-titanium-bolt-carrier-group-w-deadblow-kit/ But in the end I was scared by all the moving parts, I’m a fan of simplicity. Has anyone used one of these?

I like that spreadsheet, much nicer than a typical workbook that is simply the costs. I’m also jealous at your $15 FFL, I’m happy I know a $25 shop, most around here are $50, if they’re even willing to do it!

I hear great things about Criterion, I believe they hand-lap many if not all of their barrels which should be a big help. Daniel Defense barrels are hammer forged, I like the concept behind that, too. I’ve not owned a criterion, I used to have a Daniel Defense barrel that was quite accurate for an M4gery style rifle (sub-MOA with m-193, better with 60 gr V-max).

I’ve had (and actually still have) a pile of scope mounts. LaRue, American Defense, Aadland, Warne, Burris, ZRODelta, Bobro... They all work, it’s largely preference of features/design vs cost, etc. Along with getting proper eye relief, I like that I don’t feel I need to worry about lapping or “truing” the rings. I’ve heard several people say they don’t like vertical split rings like LaRue and American Defense, but mine have been rock solid. Personally, I like the design of ZRODelta the best, but it is also big $$. It has more lugs on the base to engage the rail (I think the surface area has to be a bonus), and a spring-loaded clamp that can be either hand-tightened to be like a quick-release, or torqued to spec to be more permanent, and it really does seem to return to zero when re-mounted. That said, properly torqued I’ve never had a scope lose zero. The Burris is probably the most “clunky” looking and heavy (ounces, not a big deal) but works, and is probably the least $$, followed by Aero (one of the few I’ve never used, by chance more than taste, will likely be my next mount). Since getting into 3-gun I’ve shifted to buying more based on who supports our sport, and here in the Pacific Northwest, at least, Warne and Aero Precision are huge supporters, if that means anything to you. Other regions probably get more support from others listed above, but I haven’t traveled much to shoot, I can only report what I see. Make sure you torque to spec, & spec can change from mount to mount.

I’d love to roast you, but I have a pmag floating around somewhere that I had inserted so hard a number of times that I mangled the leading edge of the over-insertion stop thingy. My first time shooting a rifle in competition I had the lovely, embarrassing experience of the mag falling out with the first round going off, then I over-compensated for a while. I learned the value of locking the bolt back before inserting the mag quickly, but it took longer to learn that with the bolt locked back I couldn’t go Mongo on it, especially with polymer mags.

SLP’s are great slug guns, but the gas system can be a bit finicky, and when you find your piston/load combo they might discontinue your piston. As for heavy optics, don’t forget to get a Nova or Supernova set up, some matches still like to see pump guns in those divisions! There is something fun about trying to run that pump at the highest speed you can, and then seeing what a Kelley or Carillo can do.