varminter22

Just a point that it happens super frequently in some places. And perhaps some people/clubs aren't as "aware" as they should be. Not really a problem at my local club (usually). But I saw it all the time at some clubs in AZ. I did mention it there, but since I live hundreds of miles from those clubs, I cannot get any more involved than I did.

I see this rule being violated all too frequently. Usually they say, "Well, its just a local/club match" - which is terrible logic. Two ROs, Scoring, & the Rules (nroi.org) Two ROs, Scoring, & the Rules April 22, 2021 by Kevin Imel Now and then we get a query from folks who are confused about something they saw recently at a match, perhaps at a club they have never shot with before, and they are wondering if what they saw was right and proper. The most recent of these inquired regarding early scoring and the job of the “second RO”. Let’s dive in. Let’s start of with just agreeing that a minimum of two ROs are required to run every shooter. There are instances where you may need three, or even four to do it properly. The first RO is the Timer RO. Appropriately enough, this is the RO with the timer in their hand, who issues the range commands to the competitor, and so on. We used to refer to this RO as the Chief Range Officer (CRO) but this lead to much confusion and some people, when designated as the CRO, felt they were required by the rules to run the timer for every shooter on that stage. Not so. We now most frequently refer to them as the Timer RO. The Timer RO is responsible for issuing the range commands, starting the shooter and so on. Their primary focus is on the competitor and the gun and they generally place themselves where they can safely observe the firearm and what the competitor is doing with it. The second RO, often called the scorekeeper, assistant, or “off-side” RO also has specific duties and is required to properly run a shooter. This RO typically is positioned on the side of the shooter opposite the firearm (so, weak hand or “off” side) and watches the shooter with a wider view watching for foot faults, 180s breaks, finger in the trigger guard (generally this is the RO that has the best view of this), target engagement and so on. The score recording duties do not start UNTIL the range command “Range is Clear” has been given. The Timer RO then calls the time and scores the targets using a call and response with the scorekeeper repeating each score as called to verify what is being recorded is what is called. Ranges are noisy places and with hearing protection on it is easy to miss a call so this methodology has been proven over time to avoid these types of mistakes. This is, in its simplest form, how we run competitors and score targets. It must be noted that per 9.6.1 that the competitor, or their delegate, is permitted to follow along and verify scores. This does NOT mean that if something out of the ordinary is found while scoring that the world stops turning and we wait for the competitor to be found to come look at his target. If the competitor, or his delegate, is not present to view the score when called and challenge it, if necessary, at that time, then the score stands and we move on (9.6.3). If cleaning your magazines, yucking it up with your squadmates about your performance on the stage or reviewing the videos that were shot during your run are more important than verifying your score then be my guest; but there is no challenge available for you (9.6.4). And then we get to 9.6.2, or what is often referred to as “early scoring” or “split scoring”. This is very often done with Multigun matches or long “jungle run” type courses. It comes down to saving time and the staff’s legs, so we can fit more competitors in a match day. However, there are requirements if you plan to invoke early scoring on a stage. The first of these is that it must be announced in the stage briefing. That’s right folks; it is required to be announced ahead of time; you can’t just start doing it because you feel like it. This allows the competitors the opportunity to appoint a delegate to follow along and verify scores, if they wish to do so. Scoring then proceeds while the shooter is still shooting and overall some time is saved. But there are some potential problems with this. In general, the RM should be consulted about doing early scoring to be sure they are okay with it and to add it to the briefing. The first problem is that while the shooter is active on a stage the entire stage is theirs to shoot. If, for whatever reason, they decided they need to come all the way back up range because they realize they forgot a target and you are already scoring and resetting behind them we, at best, have to stop them, clear them out and award them a reshoot because they have been interfered with. A few years ago there was an incident at a major match where they were scoring and resetting behind the shooter and he realized he had forgotten/missed a popper and came back for it only to find people standing at said popper doing the reset. There are better and safer ways to elevate your heart rate and blood pressure. In Multigun this is less of a problem because we typically only score the portion of the stage that has been shot with the firearm(s) that have been abandoned. The second problem is this leads to a whole bunch of folks wandering down range during the course of fire. This increases the chance someone might catch some splatter off steel and can be a huge distraction for the competitor. There is also the potential for someone to end up where they should not be which is potentially dangerous. And here is the biggest issue we see with clubs invoking 9.6.2: The Assistant RO abandons their post to score. Folks, we still need two ROs running the shooter. If you are going to use split scoring and have announced this ahead of time as required, then someone else gets the scoring device and performs scoring (with a delegate in tow if so desired by the competitor). The scoring RO must still call out the scores so the delegate can hear what the hits are being called and must deal with challenges appropriately. At times, with some complex stages set up over a lot of territory, it can be expedient to have two or even three people scoring with the scoring device going down the center scoring those targets and people scoring on either side catching the targets in the wings. This is split scoring which can be very fast, often eliminating the problem of missing targets during scoring complex layouts, and can eliminate the perceived need to score behind the shooter due to time constraints. No rule says that the only person that can score targets is the person with the timer in their hand. This is tradition and it does save some confusion but variations on the theme are allowed and often a good plan. These variants are most often employed at major matches with static stage staff who have worked out what can be a somewhat complex ballet ahead of time and who also are more experienced. Most local matches are better off, generally speaking, sticking with the tried and true scoring after the shooter has finished and the Range is Clear command has been given.

Thanks. That data for 38 Short Colt looks helpful.

I've read that some folks load sub minor, perhaps around 90 PF, for Steel Challenge. Am thinking I would like to try that. Anyone have any 38 Short Colt or 9mm data I could start with? Perhaps around 650 fps? Am using 145/146 gr polymer coated bullets from Bang & Clang and Eggleston Munitions. Powders on hand: N320, Tite Group, Clays, WST.

Here's a vote for James Austin's Moon Clip Server. Been using one for five or six years and love it.

Well said!

I agree with J Allen. And by the way, who said "don't care about being competitive"? This horse has already been beaten, but I'll say it again, "IF a person is competitive in Production Div C Class (for example) with a revolver, then he/she IS competitive!"

Roger that, J Allen! I've searched and searched and have had no luck finding a suitable holster. Even the USPSA recommended "preferred vendor" doesn't make a revolver holster.

Didn't mean it to be personal. But I do believe USPSA should be notified that they're doing it wrong. Again, thanks everyone.

Again, not to beleaguer the subject, but let me try to clarify with an example. Lets say a guy has never shot USPSA before. He decides to shoot his revolver in Prod Div. He shoots a bunch of classifiers and is classified in C class. IS HE NOT COMPETITIVE IN HIS CLASS? Of course he is. Now, that guy is just an example. Not me. As I said earlier, I am classified B in Revolver Div. And I am classified C in Production (with same revolver). Now that C classification is NOT because I was downgraded one classification from B. No, it is because I actually shot plenty of classifiers and was legitimately classified C. So, again, how can one say I cannot be competitive in my class? Will I ever attain GM classification and be competitive in Prod? Ha, no, but like many, many folks, that ain't gonna happen no matter what gun I use and that was never the gist of this conversation - unless your definition of "being competitive" means becoming a GM and winning the big matches.

No. More Midwest.

Thanks. We agree on a lot. Again, a disconnect. I said I am already classified C in Production with my M627. NOT other divisions. At least that is what I meant! I think I mentioned that somewhere above. Yes, IF repeat IF I were to go get classified with my M627 in Open, sure I would probably be D (or sub D! Ha.)

I understand that train of thought, but again, being competitive in a specific class is being competitive in that specific class no matter what equipment one uses! Now if a person wants to spend a whole lot of time, money, and effort to purchase and train with a whole new platform (meaning the newfangled bottom feeders that are so popular in Prod and CO and make a living as a sponsored shooter and win those huge $100,000 cash prizes at local and area matches, sure, that's fine! And it might make him/her more competitive assuming he/she gets along with the new platform. I suppose I am a participant. A somewhat competitive participant - IN MY CLASS! I still say one can be competitive with whatever legal handgun he/she chooses IN HIS/HER SPECIFIC CLASS. I don't think it wise to tell the guy (that was mentioned above) that won an area Production Div match with his revolver that he wasn't competitive.

Way cool! And illustrates my point!

Thanks, all, for the lively discussion. I was about to talk myself out of going further in Production (with my M627). Now, however, I'm back to thinking seriously about doing it more often just because (a) I can, (b) it will be fun, and (c) all trigger time is good for ya! Oh, and (d) its fun to finish ahead of some C, D, and occasionally even a B Prod Div bottom feeder shooters! He he.

Roger that. Wrong gun? Does the rule book say a revolver is the wrong gun for Production? You better notify them to change their rule book! But won't know how well you're doing? Again, if I'm a C class production shooter why can't I compare to other C class production shooters? Maybe its time to put this one to bed. We can agree to disagree!

On a related note, I shot with a friend back east. He's an A (or was it B? I forget) class shooter, I think. He enjoyed shooting his optic sighted 8-shot revolver in USPSA Open Div occasionally. Perhaps he'll pop in here and you can advise him how foolish he is!

But I still fail to see why you care and discourage folks from shooting what they want, where they want (when legal). You may be trying to win the $100,000 cash grand prize at your local or area match, but ... I could break out my 1911. Or I could go buy one of those newfangled Production bottom feeders. Or even buy an optic. But I have very little interest in them. Actually, zero interest in optics. By the way, the last time I shot "Can You Count" (06-03) my HF was 7.2098 making it a B score in Rev and making it a C score in Prod. Well, that is exactly how I'm classed, B in Rev and C in Prod.

Again, C Class is C Class is C Class (within one's own division).

I don't mean to beleaguer the subject, but I've not been able to figure how shooting a Production classifier with a revolver is such an "interesting concept". Don't we all shoot the same classifiers?

Oh? Well, I'm not a great shooter. Am just a low B in Revolver, and a C in L10, Prod and SS, and I never finished last nor near the bottom in Prod. And a Prod Div C class shooter competes with Prod Div C class shooters, does he not?

I don't see shooting production div with a revolver as all that difficult, except, of course, being limited to eight rounds. Its actually kinda fun.

Yes, in USPSA and ICORE. I really don't think I've ever met anyone that used factory ammo.

Ha, yeah! If we can have that silly PCC Div, why not a SA Div? (Now THAT ought to aggravate a few folks!) LOL