motosapiens

Your first sentence is a very valid point. As to your second sentence, I had the opportunity to compare my plastic gripped 9mm 2011 (38 oz) with my 50+ oz 40 minor steel-gripped 2011 the last couple weeks. I don't think the heavy gun really needs that much weight, but I don't think it hurts much either, whereas the plastic gun definitely bounces more and is slower on steel and longer shots just because of the extra dot movement. It would be interesting to add 4-6 oz to the plastic gun and see if that made it perfect.... but the heavy gun feels perfect enough to me that I'm just going to sell the plastic one. Of course I have shot a LOT of rounds through the heavy gun, so it feels far more familiar and comfortable to me coming back to it after 6 months than a new gun with 1-2k through it. Individual tastes may vary. I'm sure just like the old days in limited we'll see folks buying inexpensive guns to get started in the sport for a year or two, but just like the old days in limited, the vast majority of serious shooters will be using high-end high-dollar equipment.

matches here are more popular than ever and almost noone knows or cares about whatever stoeger is doing to get clicks.

yep, no reason you can’t choose an inferior racing platform. ‘murica!

i made M with a bone-stock edge, but my wife and I both made a noticeable improvement in match results when we got better limited guns with heavier grips, lighter triggers, lighter slide and more accuracy. But even without measurable performance improvement, people will still buy expensive guns because most people find them more pleasurable to own, handle, shoot and work on.

it's unnecessary in any division, but better guns definitely shoot better, and better costs money. You may feel that you're not giving up enough performance to make a difference to *you* by shooting a cheaper gun, but you are definitely giving up some performance. And most people would rather not leave any stone unturned when it comes to seeking performance through spending money. OTOH, spending time, on practicing or dry-firing..... ain't nobody got time for that, lolz.

And all of those guys will react to getting beat by spending more money on their guns..... lol....

Yep, and just like Limited, 11 or 12 people will shoot those cheap guns for a year or two, and then they also will buy $5000+ custom guns.

it is actually inescapable. Every division that allows 2011's immediately becomes a $5k+ custom gun division. That's why its important to not let 2011's into CO.

haha, i was having that same struggle until I shot my limited gun in a match with a dovetail optic plate. Most fun (and best shooting) I've done in a while. I am now committed to LO for 2024.

I have 2 atlases from 2017 when they were a reasonable price. I think they have been vastly overpriced for a few years now, and so we've purchased other new guns from other builders that do real custom work.

i loaded up a hundred rounds at 130-135 pf, and a handful of them felt 'extra light'. perhaps just at the low end of what will run the gun, perhaps an issue with such a small amount of powder in a 40 case. I bumped the load up to 140pf and that seems to feel alot more consistent and makes the slide move at a more reasonable speed. Still doesn't move the muzzle a whole lot on a 50+oz gun.

it looks like it will be a very popular division for lazy people who like to spend money on fancy guns. 9mm 2011's seem to be much less finicky with feeding and magazine issues than 40. Nonetheless, after shooting a free (but light) LO gun the last month or so, I got my old limited gat set up for LO and shot it yesterday (atlas titan 40 with dovetail dot mount and 140pf ammo). It was pretty darned fun to shoot. I like it quite a bit better than the 9mm I was shooting. Literally took me no time at all to adapt, but I have shot many tens of thousands of rounds through that gun with iron sights. I think I am going to focus on LO this year since I still have 6-8k 40 bullets and I like the gun. My wife wants to shoot open nats, so I think I'll probably just load major and shoot it in open for a few weeks also. I'm sure I will do better (and spend a ton less $$) than if I buy another open gun and try to learn how to use it between now and then, lol.

i have never measured the pull weight because i don't care, but i have had success with the 11 lb spring as long as i use federal or winchester primers. i think cci are probably safe too. with ginex or s&b primers i had to go up to 12lb to get reliable ignition.

factory defensive rounds? or bulk factory ammo that people actually shoot. Seems like alot of it is not much hotter than 125-130.

good to know. perhaps just my choice of powder. i should test again now that i'm shooting n320 and see if still starts locking up.

that is a somewhat reasonable point. I've always preferred to just take care of that stuff *before* I have issues, lol. fwiw, my shadow 2 will stop running if i don't clean the extractor every 1500-2k rounds, and it's a much bigger pain to clean the extractor. (have to remove the optic).

extractors need to be cleaned on most anything, but especially 2011's and 1911's and cz shadow2s. I remove the extractor and clean the channel about every 3rd match. (750-800 rds). In my experience recoil springs haven't been needed very often. I change once or twice a year with 2011's in general.

i was going to buy 1000 or so rds of eley when my wife first started shooting open last spring, because it was cheaper than buying new brass and we didn't have much 38 brass then. But I noticed their bullet has an exposed lead base. In an open gun, some of that lead vaporizes and deposits itself on your compensator, where it's much harder to clean off than plain old boring soot from powder. So we worked a nearby section match instead, and got free match entry and $110 each towards travel costs and picked up 700 or so pieces of 38 brass.

i've never purchased new brass, so I wouldn't add it in to my calculations. we are spending 10.5 cents on bullets, 5 on powder and 7 on primers, so right around 23 cents/round. Couple hundred bucks a month makes it pretty worthwhile for me to spend 10-15 minutes every few days loading ammo for the missus.

Not that I'm arguing for major/minor in other divisions, but practical pcc's (with real barrels, not the gamer 5" shrouded barrels) should easily and safely make major pf with anything close to a real 9mm factory defensive load. The winchester ranger 9mm that my agency carries makes 177pf out of my cz scorpion.

Good points. lack of heat in limited is a big part of what prompted my move to minor optic divisions. Not sure that I would agree that the last weekend in june is 'stupid early', but with mrs moto shooting open, we're not going to CO nats anyway. I'll probably end up shooting my 40 with a slide-ride dot and no comp in open nationals just because I'll be there to work and it sounds easier than sharing her open gun. A1 has more than twice as many CO entries as LO (135 vs 67). Open is the only other division that is close at 104. Everything is else below 40. All iron sights added together is barely 50.

? i didn't say anything about anyone being weak. Anyway, I know it's fun to be offended and focus on individuals, but I'd rather talk about the topic, and you bring up an interesting one that I agree with. It seems to me that CO and LO are far too similar right now, and both allow mods that take them pretty far from practical guns that people actually carry. I don't know what the acceptable answer is. Obviously, people would weep and wail if you made any changes to CO to differentiate it (such as shorter mags, and a more practical weight limit). If I were king I would just roll CO into LO and create an entirely new division with short mags and a lighter weight, and I would also ditch the requirement for an optic. But i don't even really know what division I'm going to shoot next year at this point. Maybe after shooting LO for a few matches with my old limited equipment I'll have a better idea of whether that's the right path forward, or just keep shooting CO.

it seems to be working... you can't seem to avoid carefully parsing my posts looking for something to take offense at. Anyway, limited optics looks like it's going to more successful than I would have imagined. I'm very surprised by the number of non-competitive gun enthusiasts who are running out and buying stacks of 9mm 2011's. And the one example I own (a free staccato P) runs absolutely flawlessly right out of the box, which also somewhat surprises me. Probably the two phenomena are related. At any rate it seems like a real stroke of marketing genius.

lol, I feel bad about hurting the feelings of people who are scared of major, but not bad enough to stop doing it.... at any rate, it doesn't really matter.... people want minor, so minor is what they get. I'm not complaining at all, minor works for me too since I shoot alot of alphas.

exactly..... kids these days are too soft. we need to bring back rhodesian walls.