Vlad

So what you are saying is that those few bags of #7 I bought five years ago to use as weights for my wife's halloween props are now worth real money? Hot damn, we are eating steak tonite!!! Seriously though, I always thought that shotgun reloading had the least financial return and with current prices buying your ammo at Dicks or somesuch makes a lot of sense.

You can reload 9mm for about $80 per 1000 rounds. The brass is free because there are pleanty of people out there who say that 9mm is cheap to reload and leave their brass behind. If you buy your 9mm for $120/1000 that is a $40 savings per 1000 rounds. Now, a 9mm Square Deal from our host is $309. Add a balance, primer flipping tray, and small whatevers, and that is going to be a $400 starting price. That means after 10000 rounds, you start saving money. Now that sounds like a lot, but for most of us is less then 1 year. In fact, it reduces your costs the first time you use it, personally I find it easier to sometimes throw some money upfront to have lower reaccuring costs. Also, keep in mind that reloading will give you BETTER ammo, which you can tailor to your gun and to your recoil preferences. For example the $80 it cost me for 1k, includes 124 gr bullet, a low recoil powder like Titegroup, and primers of known quality. These are not always things you get over the counter, if you can even know what you are getting from most manufacturers.

Folks, you can't have it both ways. If I setup a stage where I show my love to revolver shooters, then the single stack guys are going to hang me. You think you need to do a lot of reloads now, just imagine how dumping 2 rounds on the ground between each 6 rounds shooting position is going to feel. Hell, that would play havok with the production and L10 shooters too. I design my stages to be Production/L10 friendly. Sorry guys but at our matches we get about 60-65 shooters and maybe 2 or 3 are shooting revolver or single stack. I'm going to worry about making stages for the majority of shooters.

Best explanation ever (R rated): http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 Out of curiosity, which forum. PM me if you would like to not provide them with a free link.

So ... If USPSA is going to have its own rule book as well as the IPSC rulebook, it would lead me to believe that the USPSA rules wouldn't be IPSC rules. Is there a reason why USPSA could not ... export its rule set and see if other shooters in the world would like to hold matches under those rules? Oh crap .. was that gasoline I poured?

I passed it for real once with a max score. Does that count?

Heh.. thanx all. Keep the suggestions coming .. The wife is already researching real estate price based on this thead. Of course it won't help us any for a while, but still .. And Nik .. don't worry. I'm not running over the border just yet.

My wife an I have been talking for some time about escaping New Jersey. For a variety of reasons we are stuck here for couple of more years, but knowing what our plans are will make those years more easier to deal with. It also gives us time to properly research our options and maybe scout some of the regions of the country which we may move to. So I'd like to hear from the members of the benoverse with any advice you may have to get us started. Neither of us has traveled enough around the country. Here are some of our requirements, and we know that not all may be met - "shall issue" state - not a liberal hell hole, but not an area where we would feel too out of place for not being church goers or not having children by choice - jobs in IT available, but that also can mean medium to large universities around, as most of my work has been done in that enviornment - I shouldn't have to sneak hunting hear into my car, as to not freak the locals. - rural/spare suburban much prefered. I would like to be able to own 10 acres or so - there should be seasons, but if the area has less then the usual 4, then the colder ones should be the ones droped. I could live in Alaska, my wife would not. - for reasons no worth explaining it can not be Indiana - the geography should be varied, a large flat plain might get boring. Deciduous forests are a big plus. - hiking areas nearby (less then 1:30 hours away prefered) - active USPSA community a big plus for me Yes we know some of those things fight each other and keep in mind we are not anywhere near the time when we can actually do this, but we would like to start planing and know our options. Thank you all.

genius!

In my opinion you need to know how to do both. I am far from a world class shooter, but I've gotten to the point where I don't really care about the first DA shot unless I'm looking at a hard shot, lets say a head shot at 10 yards or more. For most draws I prep the trigger about half way as I bring up the gun. If the first shot is harder one, I'll do the whole trigger pull while I'm on target. I think they both have a place.

Actually Bill does shoot production, I guess just not enough to get classified. That aside, I sort of agree and disagree with him at the same time. Open and the reast ARE different and it doesn't matter what you do with course design, Open will still have an advantage. I do however think that when it comes to iron sighted, non-ported guns course design can flatten the curve dramatically. Major vs minor remains a issue, as it should, but capacity can be meaningless, and so can magwells, speed holsters, mag pouches in funny places. Let me put it another way. I DO shoot production, and on good stages I don't feel like I give up anything to the limited shooter, and even beat Bill sometimes

You bum!

Bruce, please understand that in no way am I denying your greater experience or authority on the issue, but where does that leave me with an experienced stats person like yourself and John Amidon disagreeing? Perhaps this is an area in which the new rule book could be a bit more helpfull? The rub is that the word correction is kinda broader then your description of acceptable changes. In fact your description comes closer to that of items listed in 9.7.4, which are changes which don't even require the shooter present. If this is what USPSA actually wants, so be it, I have no problem with it, but I think if that is case the current wording is flawed and BOD and NROI should clarify what types of corrections are permissible and what type are not. I agree with trying to remember what hits were not scored on the 14th taped target is a bad idea and a reshoot should be required, but adding misses to targets to which both shooter and RO KNOW that only 2 shots were taken, is a different issue. We don't have to worry if those third shots were hits or misses. They just weren't there and short of some time/space discontinuity those shots were did not put holes in the paper.

Well, what happens AFTER the match is pretty clear, they get No Penalty Mikes. Thats very clear in the rules. What happens during the match is a bit more confusing to me. Bruce thinks they should get reshoots, John Amidon thinks they should not. After sending him the very same description of the events I have included in this thread (I cut and pasted it) he replied: At this point I can see both sides. I think that considering the totality of USPSA rules and their intent, granting a reshoot would be unfair to all other shooters in the match. We would be rewarding a shooters brain fart. On the other hand, the rules do say that a incorrect score sheet requires a reshoot because of 9.7.5. On the other other hand a score shee CAN be corrected as oer 9.7.2. To me the logic of those two rules is that if a score sheet can be corrected, with both shooter and RO agreeing, then you correct the score sheet. If the match ends without anyone noticing. 9.7.6.2 takes over. The real problem shows up when you discover the problem during the match and the shooter and RO do not agree on correcting the score sheet. I guess at that point a reshoot become needed, unless for some reason you can't have on (like getting dark outside) in which case we get back to 9.7.6 and 9.7.6.2. I doubt this is true for most cases. In this case, the shooters would drop 10 rounds, thats 50 points from the maximum. Thats no way to make that up with time, specially when it would have only cost you an extra split per target to get there. What procedurals? They enagaged the target and the course was scored Comstock.

My first reaction was that I was about to see what it looks like to pull a kidney out with a bottle neck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mim90zCi34Y&eurl=

Just you wait until you play with Opera, though Firefox is nice and in my opinion a very close second to Opera.

Just as an update, I ran this by John Amidon, and his take is that no reshoot needs to be granted and the stage stays. If the problem is discovered during the match and all parties agree, then the score sheets can be modified as per 9.7.2 and the missing shots marked as misses. If they don't agree, or the problem is found after the match then 9.7.6 and 9.7.6.2 come into play and NPM's are the answer. Thanx all.

rofl

Just to complete the scenario... *During* the match, there's no provision in the rules for "fixing" a scoresheet, after it has been signed by the RO it is considered a definitive document so you can't simply "add" missing hits or misses. If the scoresheet is found to be incomplete during the match, the only recourse provided by the rules is to *require* the shooter to re-shoot the stage. What about 9.7.2 If corrections to the score sheet are required, these will be clearly entered onto the original and other copies of the competitor’s score sheets. The competitor and the Range Officer should initial any corrections. This reads to me like you can make corrections to a scoresheet after it has been signed. Over all I'm inclined to say that the correct solution would be to toss out the stage, though it irks me because in some ways it punishes the rest of the shooters for one squads mistake. For the same reason, a re-shoot seems to be against the spirit of the game as it gives shooters a second change at a stage they screwed up by their own lack of attention. In this particular case a reshoot for a whole squad would have backed up the match past sunset in any case.

Well .. thats the problem isn't it? What do I tell a shooter who had a brain fart on a different squad and shot only 2 per target? He has the same brain fart as the other entire squad, but he had it all by his lonesome. Does he get a reshoot for being a dummy? As for after the fact, no penalty mike happens to be what I also think is the right answer. BUT, how do you score them if you know what happened and no re-shoot was granted? Should the score sheets have been fixed with misses during the match if a reshoot was not granted?

I posted this to the USPSA forum as well, but I'm curious to see also what you guys think. We had a strange thing happen our latest match and it raised some questions about what was the right thing to do. I have my opinions (and the rules which I think back them up) but I would like to see what you think. The match had 7 stages, 7 squads, each squads self-RO's. We try to make sure that each squad has a list a couple of people who can handle a score board and timer, even if they are not always certified RO's. We make sure to remind everyone at the start of each match that if there are ANY questions about a stage they should look up the match director and get it solved before they start shooting the stage. One of the stages required 3 shots per target. This was indicated on the course description in 3 places, on the score sheet in 4 places, and mentioned during the shooter meeting. It was also read by one of the squad members out loud to the entire squad when they arrived at that stage. You see where I'm going with this, right? One squad managed to ignore all the obvious signs and the first 7 of the 9 shooters only shot 2 shots per target. Even after they read it out loud. Don't ask me why they have done this. I can not even imagine it. As soon as they figure out they screwed up, they went and grabed the match director. I have two questions: 1) What is the correct thing to do DURING the match when something like this happens? I think if there was a dedicated RO that screwed up, the shooters should have gotten a reshoot. However with the shooters themselves being the RO's, and likely 2 or 3 different RO's having screwed up and 9 people not noticing it, the question of fairness to the rest of the shooters on other squads (who all got it right) came up. What is the call? 2) Assuming that no one notices, and the first person to notice the problem is the stats person after the match is over. How do you score missing shots? Vlad

For all that is holly .. DO NOT FLY INTO NEWARK. Newark arrests shooters regularly for things which aren't crimes but which the uninformed guy at the gate thinks should be crimes in his little world. Go via Philly.

Well .. While we are at it, any pluses or minuses for the various designs? Any particulary swinger or whatevers which work better then others? Any to stay away from?

Hi all, I'm doing some research which should lead to purchasing some props for our match. Right now I'm looking at replacing or augmenting our collection of swingers, turners, clamshells, out and back, and so on. Besides MGM and GT who else should I be looking at? Who else makes decent targets, and supports the sport?