Vlad

Take a look at this ALS: http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=6378 No hood, just a button.

There are multiple kinds of ALS. The one I'm talking about doesn't have a hood, just a unlock button on the inside between belt and gun, where your thumb falls. It doesn't make you apply force with your trigger finger like the serpa does, it doesn't lock on the trigger guard, it is a lot smoother and faster for me, and it costs about as much as a standard blade tech.

Kurt what you are telling me is that the right system doesn't exist, yet. Because I've seen gravity fail. Ever see a plate holder break? A post fail? A plate turn? A plate weld fail? When I was saying I don't trust gravity, I wasn't exactly kidding.

Pretty much everything about the serpa scares me. People who like them are a hell of a lot braver then me.

NY State rifle match used to use a light strobe with a sensor on the back of the plate kinda like these http://flashtarget.com/store/ They used to work really well, providing visual feedback for both shooter and ROs. I dunno how often they broke, I didn't see them fail in the 2 or 3 matches I shot there.

I'm liking my ALS enough that I'm just using it for USPSA now .

Yup, as I've said it is a problem that needs correcting. Of course, I don't share your optimism for simple gravity, if for no other reason that I live in NJ. If we can't f'it up, we can legislated against it.

Which one is more important, painting for every shooter or correct hit calls? Would you settle for painting every squad?

BTW, I don't know the history of this, why did SOF stop?

Clearly I don't doubt your experience, it was never a question, which is why I'm actually trying to understand your point of view on the issue. I will however point out that there are some differences between a rifle only match and a 3 gun match, for one there isn't a lot of fapping around clearing and staging guns. Looking at the video's of the Nordic match and the Euro championship, it seems to me that most stages were rather quick low round count, limited movement stages. I'm not saying that can't be fun, but it seems to me to be a different flavor. I'm sure you can design and entire very fun match completely around the method of reset you suggest, but I wonder if that point you are limiting what you can do with the match because of your chosen reset model. As for shooters resetting, that fine, but one of the things that brings back is the possibility of arguments over early taped targets, and the like. I'm also wondering why you are opposed to more modern methods? We are in agreement that RO's calling hits is imperfect, but I'd suggest that your methods were also used about 100 years ago, admittedly successfully. I am aware that technology done poorly can fail, but I don't drive a horse to work anymore, and my modern car works pretty well. I are you really saying and this day and age we can figure out a reliable electronic scoring method?

I dunno Kurt, I don't run the match, I just work it as a cog, talk to Larry and Howard about finding more staff. It should be pointed out that they had like 80 or so this year and shooters didn't have to reset a single piece of steel or tape a paper target, but I'm sure they'll be glad to hear your suggestions. I do think most people who shot the match rather liked it.

Ah those minor logistics, I knew I was missing the easy part somehow.

Ok who is volunteering to dig bunkers?

One of the local clubs got some hard foam covers of some sort for the poppers. Basically 3-4 " of this odd dense foam glued to the face of the popper covering all of it, trapping the bullets and splatter. They seemed to hold up pretty well. No idea if someone sells it or they made it.

I guess I'm confused about the notion of competition then. My chance on everything on that table came with my match entry. It was up to me to do well or poorly. I guess I could stay home enter the publishers clearing house content for fair chances. Or scratch off lottery tickets.

Errr you means besides the like 5 raffled guns? You mean besides that people like me in the bottom third walked away with +$300 of stuff? Lets ignore that, I say I had a chance at anything on the table, I squandered it when I shot poorly.

Kurt, how many shooters were in that match? Again, seriously trying to figure this out. Lets say the FNH has 250 people over 3 days (assuming 100 staff shooting before) and I'm being very forgiving with these numbers. 250 shooters x 7min = nearly 30h. Divide that over 3 days and you are looking at 10h of shooting and resetting. This assumes, no breaks for the RO's, no walk through, no lunch breaks, no DQs, no RM calls, every squad is on time, no waiting for the fog to burn off, everything flawless. Add 10min per squad for walk through and you now out of daylight. I think it is a bit disingenuous to say my paradigm for one specific match is broken, and then ignore that specifics of that match and say because it works for some other specific matches it should work everywhere. Those stages were probably around 4min turnaround time. That said, I do think it can be done better, because the technology is a better then cheaper then it was in the days of the SOF matches.

Come on, thats not what I said. Personally I'm always interested in making things more efficient, so if you really think there is a way to do things better, I'll listen. However I'm referring to a specific case and a specific range and a specific match and specific stages. Just because I'm doubting that the methods you have suggested would have worked under the circumstances, it doesn't mean things can't be improved, but take a look at the videos posted of stage 5 and 6, keep in mind they are side by side so fire has to be checked on both for someone to get downhill, and calculate the time it would have taken.

As the guy that finishes in the bottom third, I have no expectation that people younger, faster, more talented then me, etc would walk away with the lesser prize because of random draws. Look, if I get together a bunch of middle aged computer programmers and start a basketball team I'm not going to say it is unfair that the NBA guys get more free shoes then my team does. Fairness only has a place in the way the rules are applied and the match is administered, not in the distribution of rewards. I don't think it is fair that I'm not as good looking as Brad Pitt, or as hung as porn stars, or as rich as Bill Gates, but I'm not proposing we redistribute their rewards either.

Fair enough. I assume the SOF range had some form of bunkers down range? It seems to me that not every range can do that (and Peacemaker less then most seeing how it is basically some valleys and some mountains). The 4 wheeler thing .. how flat is the range and how fast are they driving? Again looking at FNH and Peacemaker, and lets stay stage 5 this year. The way the targets were laid out, I would say it would have taken a minimum of 1000 yards of travel to reset all the steel targets, and realistically due to the terrain and hills more like a mile. Even at a rather suicidal 30mph that would be about 2min not counting the actual resetting, acceleration, mounting and dismounting, and the occasional ambulance ride for broken RO's after 4-5 days of random accidents. Lets say this whole thing only adds 2 minutes per shooter to the reset process. 325 shooters times 2min is nearly 11 hours added to the match. Now, that is the easy math. The much harder math comes in when you have to syncronize 2 different stages because 5 and 6 shared a notion of downrange and sending people down one of them while the other was still shooting would have been crazy. In fact that problem would have been true with bunkers too, assuming there were .. 12-13 bunkers dug into the hill side to cover all the targets. I'm not saying there are not better ways, but I'd be inclined to say that remote controlled targets would be the smarter play, although a bit more expensive. I say this as someone who got burned by targets not being called after 3 clear (to me through a scope) hits: I would rather have some poor calls then RO's running up and down the range dogging friendly fire.

I'm puzzled by this line of thought. I've always thought we referred to this as a sport and maybe I miss something but usually the prizes in figure skating aren't give out randomly.

Well seeing how when I took my RO course (with Troy as the instructor) I got a pretty clear impression that optional reshoots don't work that way, I guess I'm going to first sit back and wonder at WTH happened to following the rules, then I'm going to shake my head and shrug it off as "Well, its USPSA" and continue to look upon the rules with mild disdain while trying my best to run fair matches in my neck of the woods. Then I'm going to continue my policy of not traveling to major matches anymore.

So Kurt, exactly what procedure do you suggest? Not everyone is fortune to have your practical experience, so instead of "there are better ways, I've seen them", could you please clue us younger folks in on exactly how those methods are used in a match and what the reset time is like.

That was an empty chamber start, if he actually had one in the chamber open would have been the least of his problems. It looks to me like forgot to rack one in the chamber, did so, and in the process knocked off a match saver or equivalent from the side of the gun.

I've seen every primer fail. Do you have trigger jobs in those guns?