Vlad

Personally, I have given up on traveling to major matches of any sort some time ago. I shoot local matches (and I MD one of them) but that is it. I didn't shoot THAT many major matches but it didn't take me long to realize that they didn't offer me more then what I got locally and that the rules seemed less enforced or oddly enforced at majors. I was almost more offended by Straders gag order then the cheating. Of course it was meaningless, as this was pretty much the topic at the range this weekend, so we can safely say most USPSA shooters either ignored it or never heard of it.

I find it amusing that USPSA thinks they are in chargeof anything and that they are doing people a favor by gracing them with their rules. It has always been fascinating to me that an organization that has no land of its own, and no ranges of its own, thinks that its rules superceed those of land owners who allow USPSA matches to happen. Chuck if my club kicked out USPSA, no one there would notice the difference, except more pits would be available to the portion of the 3000+ members trying to use the place every weekend. Maybe small clubs in low population areas depend in USPSA for clout and shooters, where I live, people gladly pay $400 per year memberships just to have a place to shoot. Whenever I deal with USPSA I'm always surprised how provincial and small minded some of the rules can be, and then I remember why I avoid like the dickens any interactions with USPSA.

It sounds to me like it worked out just fine. The MD/RO/etc where not dicks about it, realized you didn't know about their local rule (for whatever reason they might have it), informed you about it, and live moves on. Because most MDs are just not out to DQ people, you were not DQed and presumably neither would any other person. And technically it wouldn't be a DQ, it would be a property owner or its proxy asking you to leave for breaking club rules. Being private property, you leave.

You know .. you can use the ELS belt even if you don't move stuff around. It is price competitive.

All I know is that some of the supporters comments have made me question the integrity of the supporters

Maybe some of the Stoeger sponsored shooters could suggest a change in serial number location to the nice folks that make it They built us four guns with it moved. The request is definitely in. We were told it cost more to put it in the middle of the receiver simply because it takes more time. The receiver has to be blocked for reinforcement in the middle before it is stamped. It's probably not a lot of time but it ads up fast when your building 1000's of guns.Like Tom said email email email. They will only know the demand is there if we tell them. Suggest to them that they can move the serial number and do nothing else and call it the "competition model" and charge $50 more.

What model number ALS are you using for your Edge. Looking for one for my Eagle I'm not, note that I use an ALS for my M&P, but I like the holster, here is their model chart http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=6378 It sounds to me like you might want 6378-56-411

Sorry Bill, my frustration is getting the better of me, but I hope you understand my point, I don't think that telling a third of the country is a good idea

I don't presume to know what you have learned, but I'f call what you stated above is being incorrect conclusions at best. I couldn't care less about post #1, I care about followup posts declaring that there is only a one true way to make something happen. I've repeatidly tried to explain how one can make this happen without the dire threat of DQs but somehow you seem to think everyone is a range nazi. Apparently finding solution to your worries and problems is not an answer you were looking for. Oh well. Carry on.

Safariland ALS. They make one that fits the Edge, with or without the light rails. It is a locking holster with a thumb pressed button. I got it for 3gun for my M&P but now I use for everything as it isn't any slower then my bladetech once you practice with it a bit.

Good luck man, there is a bit of the same story in our neck of the woods.

I said what now? I love arguing with people, but it helps if we are quoting eachother correctly. Nowhere did I say such a thing. What I said (or implied, suggested, etc) was that if a club had such a rule imposed upon them by the range owner as a condition of their match I wouldn't fault them for going along with it. I didn't ignore your query, I've addressed by making insinuations about the metal capacities of an MD that didn't make that pleanty clear or one that enforced such a rule upon unspecting visitor without a proper warning. As I'm neither a cretin nor an MD for such club, I'd suggest that my very first act, had I had to deal with this rule, would be to post giant signs in pink paint by the safe tables stating the policy. Then, if a unsuspecting visitor happened to gear up and miss the giant sign and I noticed it then I would kindly correct them, explain to them the situation, and go about running the match. Again for some reason everyone assumes all MD's are some form brainless harpies who's primary worry is how to DQ shooters. Where the hell do you people shoot that this the first thing that comes to your mind? Again, it helps if we are having the argument. Yep I certainly claim that property owners can make whatever rules they bloody want, seeing how it is their property. The argument I actually having is that declaring that USPSA can't possibly happen under those circumstances or that it would better off not happening at all then suffering under such gigantic intervention into the holly rules of USPSA is basically the same type of absolutist nonsense that you projecting on a theoretical MD that might try to run a match under these rules. Yes, I think this is about as absurdly unimportant as picking up live rounds. As I'm not assuming massive levels of mental incapacitation as a-priori requirements for MDs and consequently not assuming that an MD in that situation wouldn't have ways to deal with obvious issues withouth being a massive dick to people willing to shoot there, I am forced to conclude it would be mostly a non-issue for anyone able and willing to think outside the box a bit, just like the rule about picking up rounds. Sure, USPSA has no rule about that, so someone who carries a USPSA rule book like a little red book containing all knowledge and wisdom might very well complain that he can not be required to pick up his live rounds. What really really gets my goat is not a club having to work under those rules, what irks me is notion we are all better not having matches at all then dealing with occasional inbred rule making process of some club. That is the sort of narrow minded approach that sooner or later will result to people trying to make something happen ask themselves "Why bother, I have idiots on one side, and cretins on the other, we are all better off shooting some other discipline where people aren't so bound to artifical rules as to make a shibari master blush". It isn't as if we are talking about a something that in ANY way would change anything about the game itself, the shooting challange, or actual safety of the match.

Maybe some of the Stoeger sponsored shooters could suggest a change in serial number location to the nice folks that make it

First of all, where do you all shoot where the RM is going to DQ anyone for a club rule they didn't mention? Any MD/RM who does that must be suffering from a congenital iodine deficiency. Heck, any match director that doesn't remind shooters about it and even give them a pass on the first occurance probably also suffers from the same syndrome. I'm all for nation wide rules, but you know what I've recently noticed? 3gun is growing faster then the weeds I call a lawn and I can't say I've shot two matches with the same rules. Magically it seems to work. What exactly should I ask for an exemption for? I'm not aware of ignoring any rules. I'm actually quite fine. I enjoy running matches, what I have lost my patience for is dealing with rule making bodies of various flavors and the notion that trying to keep the sport going in stupid places is somehow a massive offence to the magical spirit of the rules. Reading some of these threads I have a heavily accented german in my head doing a voiceover "You are not having zee fun zee right way. Du musst halt having zee fun and zee fun papers is revoked schnell!" Brilliant!! Lets not offer Limited or Open in California, New York, NJ, Colorado, Conneticut, Maryland, and whatever else. That's only about a third of the population of the country. For sure that will only grow the sport. Again the german voice in my head tells me the vee are having zee fun zee wrong way. Oh wait, it was divine inspirtation visited upon the BoD that has change that rule for this year not an actual need that has been around for decades. Maybe for those couple of decades we should have had less shooters, right? And of course, as I'm making my german jokes, it is my german brother from another mother that comes to my defense Speaking of which, Nik get your butt down to our neck of the woods soon, we are breaking all the rules and need zee discipline. Just gives us a heads up, we need to get our gimp masks polished and the zippers shinned

First of all why does anyone assume that a rule like this would be secret and a DQ would be the first time you heared of it? If I had to enforce such a rule I would certainly make sure it was mentioned during the shooters meeting at every match. I don't know where people shoot, but there seems to be this presumption that "non-local" shooters wouldn't know about it, and if someone sprung it on you mid match that'd be a valid concern, but if someone did that you wouldn't want to shoot there anyway. And if I don't deal with crap and throw in the towels then there is one fewer match in the area and there is one club which will probably take a decade before it ever allows "action shooting" again given current makeup of the board. I find it fascinating that people are so sure about how they would do things in unknown circumstances in other states and localities. Everyone assumes that the way the color of the sky is the same everywhere, and if it isn't well you can't call it the sky so GTFO. There are 8mil people my state and exactly 3 ranges where we can shoot USPSA. Losing one would hurt and not hurt just us but it would probably in the long term harm USPSA as the high density areas of the country subcumb to idiotic laws, range rules that have to do with close by neighbours, clubs with 3000+ members having to have rules that small clubs elsewhere might not need to have, etc. We as shooters and specially as USPSA shooters have enough crap do deal with localy that the last thing we would need is USPSA (or USPSA rule fetishists) complain that being asked to leave their mags behind when using the safe table is not true USPSA and the clubs should have their affiliation withdrawn. Let me give you a VERY concrete exemple of a place we were breaking the USPSA rules until this year. We have mag limits in my idiotic state. For some matches around here the clubs required us to not allow mags over the state limit. Oh no .. quick lets remove that clubs affilition because they are breaking USPSA rules. I swear sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

I know the LNL is feature for feature comparible with the Dillon presses, but I can't help but notice that LNL users are ending with lower production rates.

Where do I go file a complaint about my own match, I so wish they would pull my affiliation at this point.

When I have seen this it is usually enforced by an idiot old guy. He is making the calls for the club so he wakes up early to be the sergeant of arms for the club. By the time this happens its a no win for competition. I figure everybody that casually shoots at the club points their muzzle over the berm all day. The average club member is way way less safe than a competition shooter but when those club relics set their sights on competition, watch out. The best way to control it is get elected. Yep, thats how that works. Problems is that very often he is retired and has time to run for the BoD where most of us "action shooters" have jobs and other stuff. At one of the clubs, we managed to get action shooters on the board (including the President) but it is an insane work load on that man. Even if you find that man, he is likely to be busy and have less time to campaign and shake hands. At the club I run my match the board is pretty much entrenched and very hard to shift or unelect. So far I've been able to bring them back into orbit whenever their engines sputter and drift into deep space, the few of us running action pistol stuff fight this every year, but one day we'll lose and get a big does of crazy. My only hope is that they are all quite old and well .. time may work in my favor here.

I dunno, draw your own limit, but are you seriously suggesting you would rather not have a local club to shoot at then bother to leave your ammo a few feet behind when using the safe table? If thats the case, well, I guess you are right, go right ahead and do that. Its not as if USPSA actually provides any sort of help to MDs to convince local clubs to play by USPSA's rules, you know? As someone who's been doing the MD thing for 8-10 years or so and who has to deal with club BoD's multiple times of year, I don't recall a SINGLE instance in which USPSA actually tried to help. Lucky for us, we don't have to use any special local rules, so it isn't an issue, but if the club BoD suddenly decided that shooters couldn't have ammo on their body at the safe table are you suggesting I should just close down the match and tell people to take a long hike off a short pier? Oh wait, my local club does have a rule, they require us to pick up our live rounds so the lawnmower dude doesn't have surprises. Thats not in the USPSA rule book, quick ... someone come yank our affiliation. Please, do it, I need an excuse to stop dealing with this crap.

I'll bet you that if REALLY enforced 3.3 you'd have a heck of a lot fewer USPSA clubs.

Don't forget that the hosting property owner can have rules beyond those of USPSA. If you lost club affiliation over that, I have to wonder what your section and area director are thinking. Things like muzzle over the berm are actually kinda even hard to enforce, but leaving your ammo 5ft behind is not some massive hardship, is it?

I think there is a vast difference between someone creeping their start position or someone using franken gun in production (which most emulates other legal guns in production anyway) and RO's cheating. Think of car racing, every mechanic tries very hard to squeeze ever adventage he can for his team out of his equipment, maybe some would call that gaming some would call it cheating, but it isn't as if the someone is changing the final times. I think EVERY sporting event is going to have the competitors push the bounds of the rules because that happens when you have a bunch of alpha types wanting to measure up to each others and the results can be decided by a couple of inches on single target or half a second on the clock. It is the job of the officials to keep that under control, and sometimes the official do a good job and sometimes they don't. However there is a GIANT difference between sport official incompetence or inattention in the face of competitor cheating and intentional cheating the official themselves. This is why this is such a large issue, not because someone slight of handed their powder puff load for the major ammo in a baggie.

Is it possible that Nooks are trying to call home? One of the things I'm annoyed by with the Nooks when rooted or otherwise is that they will only set their own time from the internet. This is a problem if the time drifts on one of them, as practiscore won't let that one participate in the sync process if has gone more then 30min out of whack. This can NOT be fixed on the range if you don't have an outside connection. I wonder if there is some silly logic in the nooks that tells them to try connecting to the internet if they have done it in the past on that network or some such, and fail to do so when on the range. In my case I have a battery opperated pocket router I use for syncing, and they nooks only make it on the internet via my home network.

I think if you follow the rule book as the word of the prophet you are correct, you can read this as a DQ, however we need to insert sanity and logic here. If the shooter made an intentional shot at a target the obviously this is fine, the rule is clearly meant to avoid ADs and NDs, not intentional discharges at a valid target.

Sure, but thats easy if you do the rest. Also, I'm pretty sure practiscore keeps a log of score changes.