Vlad

I dunno about you guys but I'm both a cheap bastard and a brass whore but I'm also not a very detail oriented over long periods of time. What this translate in is that I hoard and jelously guard my pile of .223 brass but I quickly lose track of which batch is what, or which pile of dirty brass came from were and by extention how many loadings for each case. I'm too cheap and too poor to shoot it once and dump it, and eventually most of it ends up left behind at lost brass matches, so I'd be happy to find a way to load it 2-4 times before I lose it. In top of it, I get random range pick brass from non-lost matches which, being a brass whore, I loath to leave behind but then I have to wonder how much it was used before I got my hands on it. Sure, I could detail check every case, but this isn't high-power shooting so how much time do I want to spend on that? So .. how do you guys manage your brass supply? I how do deal with keeping track of number of firings and how to you deal with random range pick up?

Correct. It is that crazy in there. I shoot production almost exclusively because I find it fun and a bit more challanging, but I've mostly given up in trying to make sense of it. I'm come to the belief that USPSA needs a rule book rewrite from scratch, but I don't see it happening.

Did they though? If you ask the ATF, what caliber was the gun sold as? Do we have the equivalent of rifle "multi" for handguns now? Because if we do, then Glock and S&W and whoever else makes lego guns should start labeling their guns that way for USPSA. That would be fun.

Out of curiosity on the issue of pinned comps, how much harm would it come from just sticking the thing in a cup of solvent for a few minutes now and then and shaking it out?

So I always wondered, how does SIGs modular gun (250?) fit into this? I'm pretty sure you can get is a kit with like 3 calibers. Which caliber is it?

I kind of agree. My old brownells ones had the rim get all beaten up pretty quickly, and these are wearing out pretty fast as well.

I think people were looking for a harsh treatment and statement becuase it is so damn easy to cheat in this game, by shooters or officials. We function entirely on the honor system, because after all we have lots of armed people in close proximity so this sorta needs to be a gentleman's game. When that contract breaks down the only way to make it right again is for the reaction to rapid, forceful, and definitive as to reduce the chance of anyone else doing it in the future.

And assuming anyone actually would get DQ'ed that would make sense. However, that seems to be a red herring as people don't seem to be getting DQed, but correctly warned or reminded.

My solution when that gets close is to load a large amount of whatever the press is setup for so I can get ahead, and then switch over.

take the mags out before you go to the safe table?

I suspect they're scared of the speed -- assuming that it's not possible to be quick and safe..... This is my belief as well. Take a bunch of older clay shooters, expose them to people running around with guns shooting fast, and big eyed shock is the response. In my case they also think shooting .223 rifles in the same pits we shoot pistol in is dangerous because the berm are not big enough. Mind you, they are 12ft tall and somehing like 16ft wide at the base. When I pointed out that the pistol berms are in better shape then the rifle range berms, the new answer is that if we shoot over the berm we'll hit something ... err .. thats true with pistols too, because laws of physics. When further pressed why we can't really 3gun at this club, the answer was because they saw a 3gun match 20 years ago at this club and they were scared. This was the answer from one of the most reasonably board members.

Err .. we still do those things, prone included, but it seems to me we shoot a lot more freestyle today then back then. I'd say we are better off.

REgardless of differences of opininons, thank you for the time and effort you put in while on the BoD, I know it is a thankless job.

Well Chuck, if my club ever forces me down this route I'll make sure to send in my card and give MID-01 back to USPSA to do with it as it pleases. I'll let the shooters know why as well. Basically this is an argument in absurdity of rules. We are not discussing and RO at some match who didn't know the rules and a rule set we might not even know what it was. We are not discussing making a match less safe by anyone's definition. We are simply discussing a rule breakage that has no negative impact on safety, the image of USPSA, or in any way changing the game of USPSA, we are talking about a rule regarding administrative minutia. You are saying that USPSA could make a rule about the angle at which cars should be parked, and anyone not following it can't call their match USPSA. We live in a different world then even 10 years ago. I get more inquaries asking if we shoot 3gun then I get about USPSA. USPSA has a brand but it is an old brand (and dare I say a bit tarnished lately?). 3gn gets a TV show, guess what new shooters are asking about? Every weekend on every range within resonable driving distance has some form of action shooting scheduled, be it USPSA, IDPA, steel, 3gun, cowboy, etc. We quite seriously have to fight to keep the time slots we have and not lose the number of pits we are using. Around here it is silly to think club attendence would drop if a USPSA match goes away, there would probably be line of matches trying to get that time slot. Oh those two major clubs I mentioned that stopped running USPSA? They are still running matches, ran by the same people. They are running "outlaw" 3gun matches and packing the house, despite the lack of USPSA rules bondage. They didn't suffer any. So ignore me if you wish, stick by your position if you wish, but I think the board needs to listen: USPSA is not the brand it is used to be, there is a lot of competition out there, if you insist on pushing for things that don't matter it will be USPSA's loss, not mine or the clubs. That day is gone, or at least it is around here.

I agree completely, and also most of these limitations are artificial and pointless. However the ammo at the safe table one isn't something you can solve with course design,

Chuck, don't take my word for it, you go right ahead and pull classifier records, we shoot at least one every month at every club in NJ. Also our match results are on our websites going back for many years. I know the last time I saw Harry in an official capacity was in July 2012 when he helped RO the Section Match we put on. Now, I'm not mad at the man, I know he had some life events, so it is what it is. I'll give the current area director a pass as well, its only been 6 months. However, all that doesn't change the fact I stated. Easy enough to check, right? I sign it. Do I have the right to talk for the club? I have no idea, I'm their official "league chairman" for something they spell "IPSIC" so you tell me, you guys keep sending papers to my house so I guess I am. Or I should say you used to until that changed to electronic with very little warning. And you know, I'd agree with you if that was the question. Every one of those things you listed are radically game changing things. They are fundamental to how our game works. They affect directly the scores we care about. Ammo on the belt when walking at safe area? Not so much. Are you, as BoD member saying that you would rather a club not host a USPSA branded match over an issue of this scale, assuming the process was handled rationally (people being properly informed, warnings if the were not aware, etc, ie: not implemented by idiots)? I don't really have any issues to work out, and never really have. When I have problems with my hosting club I work on them, and frankly if I can't solve them, my AD will have zero influence in the process. The BoD of my hosting club couldn't care less what USPSA wants, if I can't convince them, neither will USPSA. The only time I've needed to get my AD involved was when I needed someone banned from the range and I got the support I needed. The was the last time I've need something from USPSA, and it was in .. 2007? I've been dutifully sending in my checks though, just in case.

We setup the same day we shoot, so it might work for us because you are planing to be there anyway, instead of a separate trip.

Gotcha. thanx. Simplest solution would be lose or gain weight then. I'm on it.

I've been thinking about the notion that certain type of help shoots for free myself. I'm not technically paying them so I can worry less about the legal bits, and it does provide a small incentive, or more realistically a small reward because people who want to help would do so without the incentive.

LOL, way to make this a doodie thread, Kurt On a serious note, when you guys have seen the ELS belts fail, did the studs just rip out of the part they are permanently attached to, or did the the non permanent side just slide off the studs when the keeper failed (or the keeper failed after)? Could you guys tell? I kinda like the ELS setup and hasn't failed me yet, but you have seen an issue then I want to know where to add keepers .

I agree, I wouldn't call it a DQ either, I would call it "sorry, you can't shoot here", but the result is indistinguishable. And obviously anyone doing that to someone who simply didn't know would be colossal asshat.

Hmm. It sounds to me that a stronger keeper might be the answer. I don't see the ELS belt being any different then CRspeed or others from that point of view, but I guess if it is happening that it is happening. I may just add some extra keepers to mine.

Now I'm curious, coming apart how?

Are you sure that isn't an operator problem as opposed to an equipment problem? I don't get around as much as you do, but I see a lot of ELS belts and I haven't seen anyone lose their yet. I'm just saying, perhaphs the problem is not the belt.

Sarge, I'm not anti USPSA, I am anti the delusion that somehow USPSA has gotten that it is that important. For example USPSA signed NO agreement with the club where I run a match. USPSA made no agreements what so ever with the club, etc. All of that was done by local volunteers, and there are no written agreements, no formal contracts, etc. Further, any such agreements were done 20 years ago by people who are no longer running the match and people who are no longer on the club board. What value do you think that agreement holds? Where is that agreement they signed off on? Heck, I'm not really even sure where USPSA is right now, as I don't think we've seen our area director in this state in over 2 years. In the meanwhile I've seen two major clubs in my section punch out of USPSA. We are seeing 2 clubs stopping this year in the next state over. I think we went from a top of 5 matches in the state at one point down to 3. Thats nice, so it you suggestion that a club and MDs who have run a match according to all USPSA rules, over the years hosted a few major matches, payed tenths of thouthands of dollars to USPSA for the right to working for free for the organization, that is one of the only 3 matches in the state wouldn't be missed because I happen to disagree with USPSA on a rule that affects the competiton not at all? Wow, on this week of all weeks, when USPSA has egg all over this face from major cheating scandals, you come up with that notion? Hey Sarge, this is what I'm against, not against USPSA. I'm against the notion of entitlement that USPSA has been creating recently. Something about this thread bothered me from earlier on, and I just got my finger on it. Someone earlier worried "what if I go to this mythical club I've never been to before and gear up before the shooter meeting"... You know .. Maybe the first time you visit a club you never shot at before, you should show up early, introduce yourself to the MD and ask if you can help, before worrying about getting geared up. Instead it seems to me we have an increasing culture "customer shooters".