ktm300

So where do I start hmmmmmm. So you think your gun is unloaded, you are at a match and just want to practice some draws. It is too much trouble to go to the safe area and not touch your ammo? Ok so we have a lot of folks with guns, some with a lot of experience, some with very little. Everyone should be able to just walk around practicing draws and transitions in a match environment? The safety rules work very well. In a match environment where you have thousands of people walking around at hundreds of matches all over the country don't you think we can err on the side of caution and save the gun handling for after the match, during your run, or at the safe area?

By the way, no argument that it's kind of stupid to go to the head with your gun in your holster.

I think we all agree on the fact if you remove your belt from your person with a gun in the holster you get a trip to DQ. What we don't seem to agree on is if the holster is still attached to your belt, and the belt is attached to your pants, and your pants are near your ankles instead of your waist is that a DQ. My take is no but YMMV.

Yes. According to the rules the belt has a defined location around the waist for both sexes 5.2.1 Carry and Storage Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match. So we need to define "on their person" correct? Do we agree the holster is still attached to the belt? If you are getting ready to run a COF the RO gives Make Ready and your belt comes loose and your pants fall a few inches are you a DQ? Where along that path is it a DQ? 5.2.3 doesn't seem to have a DQ attached to it like 5.2.1 does. I can't find an appendix entry that defines "on their person". If the belt is still attached to the pants, and the pants are still on the person I think we are good to go unless you try to run a COF with it like that. 5.2.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and allied equipment must be worn during the course of fire; the belt must be worn at the waist level, which is deemed to be at the same level as the original belt loops on the lower garment. (See 5.2.3.1 for exceptions.) The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. The belt may be removed between courses of fire. 5.2.3.1 Lady competitors are permitted to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip level, however, the top of the belt must not be positioned below the furthest lateral point of the top of the femur (tuberosity major). Seems you just answered the question. The belt can't be around the waist if you sit down on the toilet. In this case falling off and removing are entirely different So show me the penalty for the belt not being around the waist. I still see that as "on their person". If you remove the belt from your pants or remove your pants I would see that as a DQ.

This vet has the same opinion as you. Me too.

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match. So we need to define "on their person" correct? Do we agree the holster is still attached to the belt? If you are getting ready to run a COF the RO gives Make Ready and your belt comes loose and your pants fall a few inches are you a DQ? Where along that path is it a DQ? 5.2.3 doesn't seem to have a DQ attached to it like 5.2.1 does. I can't find an appendix entry that defines "on their person". If the belt is still attached to the pants, and the pants are still on the person I think we are good to go unless you try to run a COF with it like that. 5.2.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and allied equipment must be worn during the course of fire; the belt must be worn at the waist level, which is deemed to be at the same level as the original belt loops on the lower garment. (See 5.2.3.1 for exceptions.) The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. The belt may be removed between courses of fire. 5.2.3.1 Lady competitors are permitted to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip level, however, the top of the belt must not be positioned below the furthest lateral point of the top of the femur (tuberosity major).

Would you DQ a guy that did the same thing? Is pulling your pants down with your rig on considered taking your rig off? And yes there is that only calling what you are 100% sure of that gets in the way as well. Now if you asked her "did you take your gun out of the holster or your gun belt off" and she told you what she did then........

I don't find anything that allows us to go back and apply penalties that were not applied at the time of the run. Once the score sheet is signed I think it is a done deal on the run. I don't find that in the list of things that cause a re-shoot. The only thing I see that fits is to give the guy a 10.6.1 DQ by calling it cheating. I've known people that have had to reshoot a stage after all parties involved realized an incorrect start position was used, long after the sheet was signed. The same rule could apply 8.2.2. 8.2.2 seems to be specific for start position. How do you apply that rule to an equipment rule?

I don't find anything that allows us to go back and apply penalties that were not applied at the time of the run. Once the score sheet is signed I think it is a done deal on the run. I don't find that in the list of things that cause a re-shoot. The only thing I see that fits is to give the guy a 10.6.1 DQ by calling it cheating.

How about not forcing people to join. Make the membership worth the price to non members. Make it in the clubs interest to sign new people up. A local match is going to let people shoot, rule, or no rule. That is the way they make enough money to keep putting on local matches. If anything they save the classifier cost on that shooter. So how do you make it worth it for people to join. 1 educate them in what they already get. How about an application to join that has the clubs name on it that explains what you get for your $25 or $35. The club gets $10 classifier credit, per new member they sign up. Now the club has another incentive to get people to join. Add some manufacturer discounts or other benefits that people that don't think they will shoot big matches want.

I think 'suck it up, buttercup' works for this one. If you want to put it in the WSB no worries there either.

Is this like a open gun cover or something he normally carries the gun to the safe table in?

Exactly and perfect don't exist in the real world. There is always a tolerance.

so you're saying it was dumb to post this question here? Nope, I thought it was a pretty good question.

Use the reasonable person test. If a reasonable person would think it's close enough, its close enough.

Exact is a pretty high bar. +- something is reasonable, +- nothing is not. What the +- should be is up for discussion. My guess is nobody every gets it exact.

10.2.1 is about defining a penalty not about the definition of a start position. Fault Line .........................A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area. If the WSB says "anywhere outside the shooting area" you need to be somewhere outside the shooting area, not partially outside and partially inside. If the WSB said "anywhere inside the shooting area" could you stand with one foot outside the shooting area? (nope)

I agree. Gaming = Knowing and applying the rules so you can gain an advantage. Gaming is part of the fun of the game.

I have seen some real top level gaming on toes and heels touching start positions. My favorite start position is Standing anywhere inside the shooting area, facing any direction, hands above respective shoulders.

My take on that is no. To be inside the shooting area you have to have at least one foot in and not be touching outside the shooting area. The reverse of that would be at least one foot outside and nothing touching inside.

+1 Below are the rules he is talking about. 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). 5.5.2 Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

Really good post

Personally I hate the "its just a club match" thing. Its a game, play it by the rules. I have had pretty good luck with "if your finished unload and show clear" for new shooters. At that point they tend to start asking questions and life gets simpler without me having to cheat to help the shooter.

The CRO should have told you to give him "if finished" not stop

As RO you are in charge of the stage. If you suspect a Squib you should stop the shooter. Notice I didn't say you Must stop the shooter. If you don't stop the shooter when they have a malfunction when you do get to the end of his time or the shooter wants to quit don't use Stop, use the standard if you are finished unload and show clear.